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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Me too. A Symbol is nothing more than clutching a dead hope. The medicine at least killed the pain...if only for a few moments it allowed him clarity of thought. If he met a living hope rather than a dead symbol, the medicine served its purpose well. I hope it gave him some comfort but I can tell you for sure that for the last 3 weeks of his life he was in almost permanent pain and only wanted it to be over. The most obvious comfort he got was from modern medicine - a cocktail of drugs that virtually comatosed him until he finally passed. Personally, I'd put more trust in that than the little cross. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Tangle Member Posts: 9486 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.6
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Dredge writes: would it make you happy to know that there exists a God who loves you Sure, why wouldn't it?
and promises to grant those who love him in return eternal life in a heavenly paradise? Ah, the catch. You know, the thing about real love is that it's unconditional. This god of yours that you're describing here, that demands our love whilst promising everlasting damnation if we don't is an evil narcissist. No thanks. Luckily, it's an obvious fabrication.
Or are you happier believing that there is no such God and that this life is all there is? Being happier or not about a fact is irrelevant. Life is simply all there is so I get on with it and normally feel grateful for it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
1.61803 writes: I feel like the main problem with these sorts of discussions is that here is never any clear consensus of what exactly is God. A very large problem. I've tried to address it in an earlier post.Please see Message 63 from this thread. Main idea (but there's also a bunch of "clauses" attached to it, explained in the earlier post):
quote: Hopefully that helps?
1.61803 writes: But I also note that alot of what was made up has come to be understood and now is agreed to exist. Is it possible that God is like that? Absolutely God could be like that. Which is exactly what the main point of this thread is about. Here's the main rebuttal to that argument, also from the post you're replying to:
quote: So sure, it's possible that we haven't discovered God yet.But how long do we look where God is - according to the "God-experts" (the religious), and find nothing, before we say we've checked? It's happened over, and over again... for so many eons and for so many different ideas of where God should be. Always, everyone of them... nothing. Which leads back to the opening argument, which still stands in spite of this "possiblity:"
quote: No one has a problem going against this "possibility" for Santa Claus - we all say we know Santa Claus doesn't exist.No one has a problem going against this "possiblity" for Sharkfin soup on McDonald's menu - we all say we know Sharkfin soup on McDonald's menu doesn't exist. I simply extend the exact same "knowledge" onto God for the exact same reasons: I have no problem going against this "possibility" for God - I say I know God doesn't exist.
I can only hope there is something more to all this than just a absurd and arbitrary occurrence. And yes it is merely a hope. Personally, I also know that there is more to all this than just an absurd and arbitrary occurrence - and I don't involve God in any way.I define my own purpose - which creates the "more to all this" - and it works fantastic for me. I understand that some people require the idea of a God for the same "fantastic more to all this for them" feeling - but this is inconsequential to how valid it is for me.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Thugpreacha writes: Stile writes:
I am questioning just what it is that He is *supposed* to do...enlighten me. Actually, I reach such a conclusion using all the data that all religions have been able to muster up in the last few thousand years showing that God actually is where He's supposed to be... or doing the things He's supposed to do. A very good question.And I am unable to answer it. ...which is precisely why I go to the experts on such things... the religious. Do as I do... ask them.
Thugpreacha writes: Stile writes:
He found us, though. Unfortunately, all those religions (including yours) haven't been able to find God in all this time. Did He?How so? It seems that you, yourself are claiming to be a "religious expert" and that you know the things God has done. Okay - let's look at it, then. How do we know God found us? I am here, no God found me.-Is this not evidence enough to show that no God "found us?" I expect the same as all claims on where God is or what God's done - nothing at all.But, please, if you do have some evidence we can look at - then let's look at it. No argument there, except that He is not limited to our imagination. I am able to describe and backup my claim that I Know God Does Not Exist.Can you describe and backup your claim that He is not limited to our imagination? Again - you seem to claim to be a religious-expert who knows things about God.Please share your evidence so that we can all know. Just as we can all look at McDonald's menu to see that there is no Sharkfin soup on it - as this is how we know things.
There is no way to show the effects of the absence of God because He is not absent. If God is not absent, then it's easy - show the effects of His presence. Everything that exists has an effect of it's presence. Computer chips allow us to get on the internet.Engines allow us to drive cars. Peanut butter allows us to eat PB&J's. What does God allow us to do that we cannot do without God? If your answer is "everything" then it is equivalent to an answer of "nothing."Because your claim is then based upon a guess - not knowledge. This thread is about knowledge of God. Not guesses.
I hope for the sake of those left after God removes His Spirit from the earth that they can find another way because it will be hell. There may eventually be a 'hell on earth,' but it will not be because of any God. Because I Know That God Does Not Exist.
Again, nobody can show another way until the experiment is done in the absence of the Holy Spirit. If you cannot show that God exists - then you cannot know that God exists.You can only guess. I'm not persuaded from my knowledge that God Does Not Exist because of your guesses.There is a difference between guessing at something, and knowing something. This thread highlights that difference.
It is a war. There is no war.There is no God. There is no Satan. I Know That They All Do Not Exist - according to everything everyone has posted in this thread.
My only advice? Keep an open mind. Don't make your conclusions just yet. Continue being good to people and doing your best as if God never existed. I love you guys. No need for a reminder, it's included in the opening post:
quote: But, this doesn't change the conclusion. Or anything else that we know. I Know That God Does Not Exist.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Dredge writes: God is increasing easy to find in nature - namely, science. Fantastic! Of course, in order for us to know this, you'll have to show it.Can you do that? When I'm on my death-bed, I will be very much looking forward to dying an waking up in heaven. When your average atheist is on his death-bed, he will be overwhelmed by fear and sadness, as all he has to look forward to is eternal oblivion after living a meaningless life. I am an atheist.And you are wrong. When I'm on my death-bed, I will be comforted of a life well lived, not wasting a second on anything that didn't exist; living real - in reality - every moment full of the greatest of meanings and purpose. I will be relaxed, and will welcome a rest.When your average Christian is on their death-bed, they will be overwhelmed by fear and sadness... the doubt of being wrong about God's existence will dawn and they will go screaming into oblivion, knowing that they wasted so much time. Spiritually without God or an after-life? How does that work? I am very spiritual - without God.What part of "spiritual" do you think is only available from God? -I am very calm in tense or crazy or even insane situations as my foundations in spirituality provide me with a strength unmatched by any others I've ever met (even Christians.) -I am able to allow my feelings to wash over me and take me to heightened levels of spirituality whenever needed - without God -I am extremely connected and understanding with my fellow brothers and sisters (that is... "all humans") around me as my spirituality allows me to be empathetic with their various situations -anything else you think comes along with "spirituality?" - I would assume I have it as well if I've missed it, but you're free to guess if you'd like I accept that the after-life may exist - without God.-I've often thought that we may be a 'run-through' world of a collective conscious -the collective conscious may want to experience many different thoughts, feelings and situations through the lives we live here -when born, we do not remember where we came from or what we're 'supposed' to do -when we die, we return to the collective conscious -adding our new thoughts, feelings and experiences to the collective conscious -obtaining answers to all our individual (during "life") questions from the rest of the collective conscious -moving onto "the after-life" by becoming a part of the collective conscious and doing whatever-collective-conscious'-do -all without God It works like that. If you have more specific questions, I can then answer more specifically if you'd like.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Stile writes:
So a possibility?
So sure, it's possible that we haven't discovered God yet. Stile writes: I have no problem going against this "possibility" for God - I say I know God doesn't exist. Stile writes: Personally, I also know that there is more to all this than just an absurd and arbitrary occurrence - and I don't involve God in any way. I define my own purpose So you KNOW God does not exist despite the possibility, then go on to say you KNOW there is more to our existence than a absurd arbitrary occurrence based on your own personal desire to assign this "more". Please reconcile. I agree that humans often assign meaning to their lives but that is just some warm comfy things to say that will give us some good feelz. Kinda like how fundies give themselves good feelz with this God business. "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If I claimed to be in communion with a leprechaun, wouldn't you think I was pretending? Show evidence that the spook exists and we might be able to take the pretense seriously.
ringo writes:
Show evidence that I am pretending. I don't pretend to get my information from communion with some spook. Phat writes:
I've had the exact same experience - but without the prayer.
There have been numerous times when decisions made after a sincere and honest prayer led to the appearance of a needed person being at the exact place that I was going. Phat writes:
Your version is worthless. Don't lie about what I want.
My conclusion is that you guys believe what you want to think. You don't want God to exist...at least not my version. Phat writes:
You contradict yourself. First you say that God shows up in answer to prayer and then you say He wants you to learn through trial and error.
Your version has a God who serves the needs of humanity...whereas my version has a God who foreknows the destiny of humankind and Who allows for them to learn through trial and error yet who helps those who are His. Phat writes:
Thanks. I will. If your God does exist, he's an asshole.
Argue all you want about starving children of other beliefs being ignored. Argue all you want about the many unanswered prayers that could be used as counter-examples to my claim. Phat writes:
I charge you with lying. Stop it.
I charge you as being in willful denial of belief in God. Phat writes:
Demonstrate that I do.
You don't think you need Him. Phat writes:
Leaps of faith are stupid. You wouldn't take a leap of faith off a bridge, would you? If not, you're not being honest with yourself.
Because I allowed myself to take a leap of faith into a place you wouldn't even want to go. Phat writes:
But it's getting better.
Do you think this world is crazy now? It will get worse.... Phat writes:
I keep asking you what the difference is and you never answer. Obviously, you don't know.
Obviously, to you there is no difference between Leprechauns and the God we preach. Phat writes:
Again you contradict yourself. How is that God allowing people to learn through trial and error?
Signs and wonders follow those whom believe. Phat writes:
The believers themselves are my evidence. By their fruit we shall know them.
If you want evidence, I present to you the believers themselves. Phat writes:
And lying is not good fruit. You will grow increasingly angry at the believers. As I have said before, almost everybody I know is a believer. Being angry at them would be exhausting. My father did say that I don't suffer fools gladly, so yes, I do point out stupid arguments made by believers.
Phat writes:
Have you met Faith? And yourself, lately, since you've taken your "arguments" to PreachTube instead of discussing them honestly here.
We will become full of joy. Phat writes:
Again, you contradict yourself. Look, I have a rational mind, but I don't doubt what I know.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
1.61803 writes: So a possibility? Yes.
So you KNOW God does not exist despite the possibility, then go on to say you KNOW there is more to our existence than a absurd arbitrary occurrence based on your own personal desire to assign this "more". Please reconcile. These are two different ideas - both need reconciling, but not with each other... separately. I will tackle the later first, as I don't understand what you're attempting to get at:
I agree that humans often assign meaning to their lives but that is just some warm comfy things to say that will give us some good feelz. Kinda like how fundies give themselves good feelz with this God business. What do you mean by "more" to this existence if you're not talking about a higher purpose? If you just mean something along the lines of hoping we are not a lucky-to-be-here result of the natural laws that govern this reality...Then I need to adjust my response. If this is what you mean... I don't "know there is something more." I don't even want there to be "something more" than this. To me... if we are a lucky-to-be-here result of the natural laws that govern this reality... this blows my mind on how amazing and incredible this all is. Way more meaningful than if we were put here on purpose by some being that simply has the power to do so... where's the cool factor in that? I do things I have the power to do all the time. Why would I be impressed by something else doing something it has the power to do? Why would anyone 'hope' for such a mundane, simple beginning? So you KNOW God does not exist despite the possibility... Yes. Just like I KNOW Santa Claus does not exist despite the possibility.Just like I KNOW Sharkfin soup does not exist on McDonald's menu despite the possibility. The way you're using this definition of the word "KNOW" - we cannot use the work "know" for anything... as there is ALWAYS the possibility we could be wrong.You can't even know you're using a computer when you read this post over the internet - there's a possibility you could be using a device that is not a computer, but only makes you think you're using a computer. Therefore - we might as well strike the work "know" from the english language.And then we'll need another word to identify the difference between "guessing" and "being confident in a conclusion based on the verification of an objective test." This issue is still nicely cleared up by a paragraph from the opening post:
quote: But, as long as we use the accepted, and used-by-everyone definition of the word "know" - I can validly say: I know that God does not exist.
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: God is Spirit. In order to even be able to defend spirituality without God, you must be able to name or at least define the other spirits. I am very spiritual - without God.What part of "spiritual" do you think is only available from God? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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AlexCaledin Member (Idle past 403 days) Posts: 64 From: Samara, Russia Joined: |
Such discussions are futile for it's one's choice, to subscribe to godless "reality" or to the godly life.
Edited by AlexCaledin, : (godless reality is sort of mirage)
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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AlexCaledin writes:
I notice that you choose a "real" computer to express yourself. Such discussions are futile for it's one's choice, to subscribe to godless "reality" or to the godly life.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
In defense of Alex, all that the computer does is assemble letters into words. the actual thoughts and beliefs are human generated. I would never engage in a serious relationship with any computer at any time.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's not the point. It isn't a "choice" between godless "reality" or the godly life at all. Even if there is such a thing as the "godly life", he has chosen reality to talk about it. So do all of you believers. Without reality, your "godly life" is strictly internal. In defense of Alex, all that the computer does is assemble letters into words.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8491 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Yes, but it does show Al is operating on the godless reality side of the universe.
And if you wait another few decades maybe one of your "serious relationships" will be with Erotica the Sensual Home Companion. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Thugpreacha writes: God is Spirit. In order to even be able to defend spirituality without God, you must be able to name or at least define the other spirits. What? Why? Are you trying to say that "spirituality" is equivalent to naming a few imaginary friends?If this is true - then why would anyone want to be spiritual in the first place? I think you're confused about what spirituality actually is.If you can define anything worthy of pursuit, let me know. Otherwise - I am uninterested in whatever you're attempting to define as 'spirituality.' Here's what I mean when I talk about spirituality:
quote: Everything that's not bolded in that description, to me... only seems like says to reach/obtain the bolded parts anyway.If you want to claim that 'spirituality' should be more focused on the non-bolded parts rather than the bolded sections... that's fair enough. But then you also have to defend why anyone should care. That is, if we assume someone already has a method to obtain "the deepest values and meanings by which people live" without God - why would they need religious traditions to attempt to tap into something they already have?
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