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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 601 of 3207 (854937)
06-14-2019 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by Tangle
06-14-2019 3:54 AM


Dead Symbols & Living Hopes
Tangle writes:
I hope it gave him some comfort but I can tell you for sure that for the last 3 weeks of his life he was in almost permanent pain and only wanted it to be over. The most obvious comfort he got was from modern medicine - a cocktail of drugs that virtually comatosed him until he finally passed. Personally, I'd put more trust in that than the little cross.
Me too. A Symbol is nothing more than clutching a dead hope. The medicine at least killed the pain...if only for a few moments it allowed him clarity of thought. If he met a living hope rather than a dead symbol, the medicine served its purpose well.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2019 3:54 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 602 of 3207 (854938)
06-14-2019 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 598 by Dredge
06-14-2019 3:46 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
Dredge writes:
would it make you happy to know that there exists a God who loves you
Sure, why wouldn't it?
and promises to grant those who love him in return eternal life in a heavenly paradise?
Ah, the catch. You know, the thing about real love is that it's unconditional. This god of yours that you're describing here, that demands our love whilst promising everlasting damnation if we don't is an evil narcissist. No thanks. Luckily, it's an obvious fabrication.
Or are you happier believing that there is no such God and that this life is all there is?
Being happier or not about a fact is irrelevant. Life is simply all there is so I get on with it and normally feel grateful for it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Dredge, posted 06-14-2019 3:46 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2019 8:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 603 of 3207 (854945)
06-14-2019 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by 1.61803
06-13-2019 2:40 PM


Re: New Topic Spinoff
1.61803 writes:
I feel like the main problem with these sorts of discussions is that here is never any clear consensus of what exactly is God.
A very large problem.
I've tried to address it in an earlier post.
Please see Message 63 from this thread.
Main idea (but there's also a bunch of "clauses" attached to it, explained in the earlier post):
quote:
When I started the thread, I was simply thinking of the popular idea held by our current society... That God is a rational concept of some entity that sits back and governs good things and helps out people who pray to Him and used to do grand miracles but hasn't felt like it since we started to monitor such things.
But now I think it will hold for any and all conceivable definitions of God that do not include God being an inanimate object and do include God being at least "something more" than humans and relates somewhat to the popular idea held by our current society. And the proposal, of course, must be rational as well.
Hopefully that helps?
1.61803 writes:
But I also note that alot of what was made up has come to be understood and now is agreed to exist. Is it possible that God is like that?
Absolutely God could be like that.
Which is exactly what the main point of this thread is about.
Here's the main rebuttal to that argument, also from the post you're replying to:
quote:
Not a single person (mathematician or physics guru or pious religious member, or high religious leader) can show any place where God may make a difference.
There's always another way to make the same difference.
Not so with everything else we know to exist.
Computer chips exist - Can't get on the internet without computer chips.
Engines exist - Can't drive a car without an engine.
Peanut butter exists - Can't have a PB&J without peanut butter.
But with God? Everything can be done in another way.
Can't be happy without God? - wrong, atheists are just as happy.
Can't be successful without God? - wrong, atheists are just as successful.
Can't be full of peace and love without God? - wrong, atheists are just as full of peace and love.
Can't be spiritually fulfilled without God? - wrong, atheists are just as spiritually fulfilled.
Can't keep your family safe without God? - wrong, atheists' families are just as safe.
Everywhere we look... especially in the supernatural or the subjective or the spiritual or the religious-world... there is nothing that can't be achieved equally without God.
Why is a believer who obtains something from God always equivalent to an unbeliever who obtains the same thing without God?
How many times must this test be done before it is accepted as positive that God does not exist?
How many times must we check the North Pole before it is accepted as positive that Santa Claus does not exist?
So sure, it's possible that we haven't discovered God yet.
But how long do we look where God is - according to the "God-experts" (the religious), and find nothing, before we say we've checked?
It's happened over, and over again... for so many eons and for so many different ideas of where God should be. Always, everyone of them... nothing.
Which leads back to the opening argument, which still stands in spite of this "possiblity:"
quote:
  • How do we "know" things?
    We first start with the assumption that it is possible for us to know anything about the existance we find ourselves in.
    We then take what data we can find and analyze it.
  • How do we "know" negative statements about the existance of things?
    Example: "I know that Sharkfin soup does not exist on McDonald's menu."
    This is a clear example. Obviously the way we know this is to look at McDonald's menu to see if Sharkfin soup is available. If it is is not there, this statement is correct. If it is there, the statement is false.
    Example: "I know that Santa Claus does not exist."
    This is more like the "I know that God does not exist" claim. But, again, the idea is the same as the previous example. We look for where the thing is supposed to be (North Pole? Chimneys during Christmas Eve night?) and see if the thing is there or not. In the case of a 'being', we are also able to check to see if certain things are done that this being is supposed to do (do presents appear underneath Christmas trees or in stockings hung on the fireplace mantle?)
  • But how do we *"know"* for sure-sure's and absolute truth's sake?
    We don't.
    But this is not a problem with "knowing" anything. We can't really ever *"know"* anything, even positive things.
    I drove to work today, it would be extremely rational and reasonable for me to say "I know my car is in the parking lot." Of course I don't
    *"know"* that as it could have been stolen. But saying so is still rational and reasonable. It is rational and reasonable because it is based upon the data I have found and analyzed. In obtaining new data (say, walking outside and noticing my car is missing), it is rational and reasonable to update my position.
  • Therefore, I know that God does not exist.
  • No one has a problem going against this "possibility" for Santa Claus - we all say we know Santa Claus doesn't exist.
    No one has a problem going against this "possiblity" for Sharkfin soup on McDonald's menu - we all say we know Sharkfin soup on McDonald's menu doesn't exist.
    I simply extend the exact same "knowledge" onto God for the exact same reasons:
    I have no problem going against this "possibility" for God - I say I know God doesn't exist.
    I can only hope there is something more to all this than just a absurd and arbitrary occurrence. And yes it is merely a hope.
    Personally, I also know that there is more to all this than just an absurd and arbitrary occurrence - and I don't involve God in any way.
    I define my own purpose - which creates the "more to all this" - and it works fantastic for me.
    I understand that some people require the idea of a God for the same "fantastic more to all this for them" feeling - but this is inconsequential to how valid it is for me.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 594 by 1.61803, posted 06-13-2019 2:40 PM 1.61803 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 606 by 1.61803, posted 06-14-2019 11:05 AM Stile has replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    (1)
    Message 604 of 3207 (854946)
    06-14-2019 9:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 595 by Phat
    06-13-2019 5:54 PM


    Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
    Thugpreacha writes:
    Stile writes:
    Actually, I reach such a conclusion using all the data that all religions have been able to muster up in the last few thousand years showing that God actually is where He's supposed to be... or doing the things He's supposed to do.
    I am questioning just what it is that He is *supposed* to do...enlighten me.
    A very good question.
    And I am unable to answer it.
    ...which is precisely why I go to the experts on such things... the religious.
    Do as I do... ask them.
    Thugpreacha writes:
    Stile writes:
    Unfortunately, all those religions (including yours) haven't been able to find God in all this time.
    He found us, though.
    Did He?
    How so?
    It seems that you, yourself are claiming to be a "religious expert" and that you know the things God has done.
    Okay - let's look at it, then.
    How do we know God found us?
    I am here, no God found me.
    -Is this not evidence enough to show that no God "found us?"
    I expect the same as all claims on where God is or what God's done - nothing at all.
    But, please, if you do have some evidence we can look at - then let's look at it.
    No argument there, except that He is not limited to our imagination.
    I am able to describe and backup my claim that I Know God Does Not Exist.
    Can you describe and backup your claim that He is not limited to our imagination?
    Again - you seem to claim to be a religious-expert who knows things about God.
    Please share your evidence so that we can all know.
    Just as we can all look at McDonald's menu to see that there is no Sharkfin soup on it - as this is how we know things.
    There is no way to show the effects of the absence of God because He is not absent.
    If God is not absent, then it's easy - show the effects of His presence.
    Everything that exists has an effect of it's presence.
    Computer chips allow us to get on the internet.
    Engines allow us to drive cars.
    Peanut butter allows us to eat PB&J's.
    What does God allow us to do that we cannot do without God?
    If your answer is "everything" then it is equivalent to an answer of "nothing."
    Because your claim is then based upon a guess - not knowledge.
    This thread is about knowledge of God. Not guesses.
    I hope for the sake of those left after God removes His Spirit from the earth that they can find another way because it will be hell.
    There may eventually be a 'hell on earth,' but it will not be because of any God. Because I Know That God Does Not Exist.
    Again, nobody can show another way until the experiment is done in the absence of the Holy Spirit.
    If you cannot show that God exists - then you cannot know that God exists.
    You can only guess.
    I'm not persuaded from my knowledge that God Does Not Exist because of your guesses.
    There is a difference between guessing at something, and knowing something.
    This thread highlights that difference.
    It is a war.
    There is no war.
    There is no God.
    There is no Satan.
    I Know That They All Do Not Exist - according to everything everyone has posted in this thread.
    My only advice? Keep an open mind. Don't make your conclusions just yet. Continue being good to people and doing your best as if God never existed. I love you guys.
    No need for a reminder, it's included in the opening post:
    quote:
  • But how do we *"know"* for sure-sure's and absolute truth's sake?
    We don't.
    But this is not a problem with "knowing" anything. We can't really ever *"know"* anything, even positive things.
    I drove to work today, it would be extremely rational and reasonable for me to say "I know my car is in the parking lot." Of course I don't
    *"know"* that as it could have been stolen. But saying so is still rational and reasonable. It is rational and reasonable because it is based upon the data I have found and analyzed. In obtaining new data (say, walking outside and noticing my car is missing), it is rational and reasonable to update my position.
  • But, this doesn't change the conclusion. Or anything else that we know.
    I Know That God Does Not Exist.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 595 by Phat, posted 06-13-2019 5:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 605 of 3207 (854950)
    06-14-2019 10:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 597 by Dredge
    06-14-2019 3:39 AM


    Of Spirits and the After-Life
    Dredge writes:
    God is increasing easy to find in nature - namely, science.
    Fantastic!
    Of course, in order for us to know this, you'll have to show it.
    Can you do that?
    When I'm on my death-bed, I will be very much looking forward to dying an waking up in heaven. When your average atheist is on his death-bed, he will be overwhelmed by fear and sadness, as all he has to look forward to is eternal oblivion after living a meaningless life.
    I am an atheist.
    And you are wrong.
    When I'm on my death-bed, I will be comforted of a life well lived, not wasting a second on anything that didn't exist; living real - in reality - every moment full of the greatest of meanings and purpose. I will be relaxed, and will welcome a rest.
    When your average Christian is on their death-bed, they will be overwhelmed by fear and sadness... the doubt of being wrong about God's existence will dawn and they will go screaming into oblivion, knowing that they wasted so much time.
    Spiritually without God or an after-life? How does that work?
    I am very spiritual - without God.
    What part of "spiritual" do you think is only available from God?
    -I am very calm in tense or crazy or even insane situations as my foundations in spirituality provide me with a strength unmatched by any others I've ever met (even Christians.)
    -I am able to allow my feelings to wash over me and take me to heightened levels of spirituality whenever needed - without God
    -I am extremely connected and understanding with my fellow brothers and sisters (that is... "all humans") around me as my spirituality allows me to be empathetic with their various situations
    -anything else you think comes along with "spirituality?" - I would assume I have it as well if I've missed it, but you're free to guess if you'd like
    I accept that the after-life may exist - without God.
    -I've often thought that we may be a 'run-through' world of a collective conscious
    -the collective conscious may want to experience many different thoughts, feelings and situations through the lives we live here
    -when born, we do not remember where we came from or what we're 'supposed' to do
    -when we die, we return to the collective conscious
    -adding our new thoughts, feelings and experiences to the collective conscious
    -obtaining answers to all our individual (during "life") questions from the rest of the collective conscious
    -moving onto "the after-life" by becoming a part of the collective conscious and doing whatever-collective-conscious'-do
    -all without God
    It works like that.
    If you have more specific questions, I can then answer more specifically if you'd like.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 597 by Dredge, posted 06-14-2019 3:39 AM Dredge has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 609 by Phat, posted 06-16-2019 4:12 AM Stile has replied
     Message 624 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2019 8:18 PM Stile has replied

      
    1.61803
    Member (Idle past 1494 days)
    Posts: 2928
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004


    Message 606 of 3207 (854954)
    06-14-2019 11:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 603 by Stile
    06-14-2019 9:40 AM


    Re: New Topic Spinoff
    Stile writes:
    So sure, it's possible that we haven't discovered God yet.
    So a possibility?
    Stile writes:
    I have no problem going against this "possibility" for God - I say I know God doesn't exist.
    Stile writes:
    Personally, I also know that there is more to all this than just an absurd and arbitrary occurrence - and I don't involve God in any way.
    I define my own purpose
    So you KNOW God does not exist despite the possibility, then go on to say you KNOW there is more to our existence than a absurd arbitrary occurrence based on your own personal desire to assign this "more". Please reconcile.
    I agree that humans often assign meaning to their lives but that is just some warm comfy things to say that will give us some good feelz. Kinda like how fundies give themselves good feelz with this God business.

    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 603 by Stile, posted 06-14-2019 9:40 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 608 by Stile, posted 06-14-2019 12:34 PM 1.61803 has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 402 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 607 of 3207 (854960)
    06-14-2019 12:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 595 by Phat
    06-13-2019 5:54 PM


    Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    I don't pretend to get my information from communion with some spook.
    Show evidence that I am pretending.
    If I claimed to be in communion with a leprechaun, wouldn't you think I was pretending? Show evidence that the spook exists and we might be able to take the pretense seriously.
    Phat writes:
    There have been numerous times when decisions made after a sincere and honest prayer led to the appearance of a needed person being at the exact place that I was going.
    I've had the exact same experience - but without the prayer.
    Phat writes:
    My conclusion is that you guys believe what you want to think. You don't want God to exist...at least not my version.
    Your version is worthless. Don't lie about what I want.
    Phat writes:
    Your version has a God who serves the needs of humanity...whereas my version has a God who foreknows the destiny of humankind and Who allows for them to learn through trial and error yet who helps those who are His.
    You contradict yourself. First you say that God shows up in answer to prayer and then you say He wants you to learn through trial and error.
    Phat writes:
    Argue all you want about starving children of other beliefs being ignored. Argue all you want about the many unanswered prayers that could be used as counter-examples to my claim.
    Thanks. I will. If your God does exist, he's an asshole.
    Phat writes:
    I charge you as being in willful denial of belief in God.
    I charge you with lying. Stop it.
    Phat writes:
    You don't think you need Him.
    Demonstrate that I do.
    Phat writes:
    Because I allowed myself to take a leap of faith into a place you wouldn't even want to go.
    Leaps of faith are stupid. You wouldn't take a leap of faith off a bridge, would you? If not, you're not being honest with yourself.
    Phat writes:
    Do you think this world is crazy now? It will get worse....
    But it's getting better.
    Phat writes:
    Obviously, to you there is no difference between Leprechauns and the God we preach.
    I keep asking you what the difference is and you never answer. Obviously, you don't know.
    Phat writes:
    Signs and wonders follow those whom believe.
    Again you contradict yourself. How is that God allowing people to learn through trial and error?
    Phat writes:
    If you want evidence, I present to you the believers themselves.
    The believers themselves are my evidence. By their fruit we shall know them.
    Phat writes:
    You will grow increasingly angry at the believers.
    And lying is not good fruit.
    As I have said before, almost everybody I know is a believer. Being angry at them would be exhausting. My father did say that I don't suffer fools gladly, so yes, I do point out stupid arguments made by believers.
    Phat writes:
    We will become full of joy.
    Have you met Faith? And yourself, lately, since you've taken your "arguments" to PreachTube instead of discussing them honestly here.
    Phat writes:
    Look, I have a rational mind, but I don't doubt what I know.
    Again, you contradict yourself.

    All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
    That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 595 by Phat, posted 06-13-2019 5:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 608 of 3207 (854964)
    06-14-2019 12:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 606 by 1.61803
    06-14-2019 11:05 AM


    Knowing Something More
    1.61803 writes:
    So a possibility?
    Yes.
    So you KNOW God does not exist despite the possibility, then go on to say you KNOW there is more to our existence than a absurd arbitrary occurrence based on your own personal desire to assign this "more". Please reconcile.
    These are two different ideas - both need reconciling, but not with each other... separately.
    I will tackle the later first, as I don't understand what you're attempting to get at:
    I agree that humans often assign meaning to their lives but that is just some warm comfy things to say that will give us some good feelz. Kinda like how fundies give themselves good feelz with this God business.
    What do you mean by "more" to this existence if you're not talking about a higher purpose?
    If you just mean something along the lines of hoping we are not a lucky-to-be-here result of the natural laws that govern this reality...
    Then I need to adjust my response.
    If this is what you mean... I don't "know there is something more." I don't even want there to be "something more" than this.
    To me... if we are a lucky-to-be-here result of the natural laws that govern this reality... this blows my mind on how amazing and incredible this all is.
    Way more meaningful than if we were put here on purpose by some being that simply has the power to do so... where's the cool factor in that? I do things I have the power to do all the time. Why would I be impressed by something else doing something it has the power to do? Why would anyone 'hope' for such a mundane, simple beginning?
    So you KNOW God does not exist despite the possibility...
    Yes.
    Just like I KNOW Santa Claus does not exist despite the possibility.
    Just like I KNOW Sharkfin soup does not exist on McDonald's menu despite the possibility.
    The way you're using this definition of the word "KNOW" - we cannot use the work "know" for anything... as there is ALWAYS the possibility we could be wrong.
    You can't even know you're using a computer when you read this post over the internet - there's a possibility you could be using a device that is not a computer, but only makes you think you're using a computer.
    Therefore - we might as well strike the work "know" from the english language.
    And then we'll need another word to identify the difference between "guessing" and "being confident in a conclusion based on the verification of an objective test."
    This issue is still nicely cleared up by a paragraph from the opening post:
    quote:
  • But how do we *"know"* for sure-sure's and absolute truth's sake?
    We don't.
    But this is not a problem with "knowing" anything. We can't really ever *"know"* anything, even positive things.
    I drove to work today, it would be extremely rational and reasonable for me to say "I know my car is in the parking lot." Of course I don't
    *"know"* that as it could have been stolen. But saying so is still rational and reasonable. It is rational and reasonable because it is based upon the data I have found and analyzed. In obtaining new data (say, walking outside and noticing my car is missing), it is rational and reasonable to update my position.
  • But, as long as we use the accepted, and used-by-everyone definition of the word "know" - I can validly say: I know that God does not exist.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 606 by 1.61803, posted 06-14-2019 11:05 AM 1.61803 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 618 by 1.61803, posted 06-17-2019 11:58 AM Stile has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 609 of 3207 (855065)
    06-16-2019 4:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 605 by Stile
    06-14-2019 10:14 AM


    Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
    Stile writes:
    I am very spiritual - without God.
    What part of "spiritual" do you think is only available from God?
    God is Spirit. In order to even be able to defend spirituality without God, you must be able to name or at least define the other spirits.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 605 by Stile, posted 06-14-2019 10:14 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 615 by Stile, posted 06-17-2019 8:58 AM Phat has not replied

      
    AlexCaledin
    Member (Idle past 403 days)
    Posts: 64
    From: Samara, Russia
    Joined: 10-22-2016


    Message 610 of 3207 (855083)
    06-16-2019 9:13 AM


    Such discussions are futile for it's one's choice, to subscribe to godless "reality" or to the godly life.
    Edited by AlexCaledin, : (godless reality is sort of mirage)

    Replies to this message:
     Message 611 by ringo, posted 06-16-2019 2:16 PM AlexCaledin has not replied
     Message 616 by Stile, posted 06-17-2019 8:59 AM AlexCaledin has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 402 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (2)
    Message 611 of 3207 (855099)
    06-16-2019 2:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 610 by AlexCaledin
    06-16-2019 9:13 AM


    AlexCaledin writes:
    Such discussions are futile for it's one's choice, to subscribe to godless "reality" or to the godly life.
    I notice that you choose a "real" computer to express yourself.

    All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
    That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 610 by AlexCaledin, posted 06-16-2019 9:13 AM AlexCaledin has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 612 by Phat, posted 06-16-2019 3:36 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 612 of 3207 (855131)
    06-16-2019 3:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 611 by ringo
    06-16-2019 2:16 PM


    A circuitous relationship
    In defense of Alex, all that the computer does is assemble letters into words. the actual thoughts and beliefs are human generated. I would never engage in a serious relationship with any computer at any time.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 611 by ringo, posted 06-16-2019 2:16 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 613 by ringo, posted 06-16-2019 3:46 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 614 by AZPaul3, posted 06-16-2019 3:53 PM Phat has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 402 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 613 of 3207 (855134)
    06-16-2019 3:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
    06-16-2019 3:36 PM


    Re: A circuitous relationship
    Phat writes:
    In defense of Alex, all that the computer does is assemble letters into words.
    That's not the point. It isn't a "choice" between godless "reality" or the godly life at all. Even if there is such a thing as the "godly life", he has chosen reality to talk about it. So do all of you believers. Without reality, your "godly life" is strictly internal.

    All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
    That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 612 by Phat, posted 06-16-2019 3:36 PM Phat has not replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8491
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.7


    Message 614 of 3207 (855136)
    06-16-2019 3:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
    06-16-2019 3:36 PM


    Re: A circuitous relationship
    Yes, but it does show Al is operating on the godless reality side of the universe.
    And if you wait another few decades maybe one of your "serious relationships" will be with Erotica the Sensual Home Companion.

    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 612 by Phat, posted 06-16-2019 3:36 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 615 of 3207 (855169)
    06-17-2019 8:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 609 by Phat
    06-16-2019 4:12 AM


    Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
    Thugpreacha writes:
    God is Spirit. In order to even be able to defend spirituality without God, you must be able to name or at least define the other spirits.
    What? Why?
    Are you trying to say that "spirituality" is equivalent to naming a few imaginary friends?
    If this is true - then why would anyone want to be spiritual in the first place?
    I think you're confused about what spirituality actually is.
    If you can define anything worthy of pursuit, let me know. Otherwise - I am uninterested in whatever you're attempting to define as 'spirituality.'
    Here's what I mean when I talk about spirituality:
    quote:
    In modern times, the term both spread to other religious traditions and broadened to refer to a wider range of experience, including a range of esoteric traditions and religious traditions. Modern usages tend to refer to a subjective experience of a sacred dimension[8] and the "deepest values and meanings by which people live", often in a context separate from organized religious institutions, such as a belief in a supernatural (beyond the known and observable) realm, personal growth, a quest for an ultimate or sacred meaning, religious experience, or an encounter with one's own "inner dimension".
    (Bolding by me to mark the parts that seem obviously notable and desirable)
    Spirituality - Wikipedia
    Everything that's not bolded in that description, to me... only seems like says to reach/obtain the bolded parts anyway.
    If you want to claim that 'spirituality' should be more focused on the non-bolded parts rather than the bolded sections... that's fair enough.
    But then you also have to defend why anyone should care.
    That is, if we assume someone already has a method to obtain "the deepest values and meanings by which people live" without God - why would they need religious traditions to attempt to tap into something they already have?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 609 by Phat, posted 06-16-2019 4:12 AM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 617 by ringo, posted 06-17-2019 11:39 AM Stile has replied
     Message 625 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2019 8:26 PM Stile has replied

      
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