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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
Why would you assume that based on what I said? Then I assume you know how the universe was created. I said, 'There is no "answer that I want".' How does that suggest that I have an answer?
ICANT writes:
At the present time, there is no way to know anything about T=0. T=0 is not even a concept. What existed at T=0?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle, refrerring to Stephen Hawking writes: He was an atheist. Atheists do not believe in creators. No, he believed in science and in the ability of the human mind to figure out its own answers. How is this different from assuming that Humans are our own Creators in the sense that it is we who decide our destiny?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: No, he believed in science and in the ability of the human mind to figure out its own answers. How is this different from assuming that Humans are our own Creators in the sense that it is we who decide our destiny? Humans obviously ARE our own creators but only in the obvious sense. What has creating our own destiny got to do with 'Creation'.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Because we become the decisions that we make. You claim that it is a harmful teaching to follow Christ. Look at this Bible Study and tell med where it gives bad advice:
What has creating our own destiny got to do with 'Creation'.quote: "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Because we become the decisions that we make. I'll try again. What has that got to do with (the) creation?
You claim that it is a harmful teaching to follow Christ. Do I? Are you sure? Or are you - yet again - talking shite? Have you never seen me say that 'do as you would be done by', and 'love thy neighbour' aren't good ways to live your life?
Look at this Bible Study No.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes: his work demonstrated to him that a creator is not necessary. Didn't he say that he had proved (with his instanton) that there was no need for a God. You can't create something without a creator. Why do you think Hawking came up with his instanton? Why do you think someone came up with string theory? Why did someone come up with the idea that 2 branes banged together and started the universe? Why did someone propose the bounce theory where one universe collapse's and another forms from it? Everyone is trying to get away from a creator. Problem is anyone who does not believe the universe is eternal in existence believes in creation by some method. Even You.
Tangle writes: ICANT wants to claim Hawking for his side No he did not believe in God but he believed in a creator. Which he called an instanton. Do you believe the universe is eternal in existence? That defies the two laws of thermodynamics. Did the universe have a beginning to exist? That requires a creator.
Tangle writes: Hawking was not on your or ICANT's side of this discussion, to say otherwise is to lie. I have hundreds of posts where I mention Hawking and I never once said he believed in God. I wish he had for his sake. I have said he believed in a creator. If he did not believe in a creator why did he invent the instanton and imaginary time? The instanton according to Hawking if it could pop into existence would create a universe just like this one. Some want to play with words and say the universe was self contained, and yes that is exactly what he said about the instanton. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes: He was an atheist. Atheists do not believe in creators. I don't care what he was, it doesn't matter now. What would you call the instanton that he said could create a universe just like this one if it popped into existence. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: Why would you assume that based on what I said? If there was no answer you would want to me would mean you had all the answers there were.
ringo writes: At the present time, there is no way to know anything about T=0. T=0 is not even a concept. T=0 means exactly what is written. Time does not exist. T=Time 0=zero time, as none exists. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Phat,
Phat writes: singularity. Singularity does not exist as it is only a place where the math won't work.
Phat writes: Creator of all seen and unseen is in fact human wisdom itself. That is the reason when Hubble discovered the universe was expanding and therefore could not have existed eternally in the past. Everybody started trying to figure out in their wisdom how the universe could have begun to exist. Thus they began creating a creator. Isn't that what they claim about us inventing our God. I don't see any difference. Except there is a lot of evidence that points to God actually existing. But I find none for what has been proposed by the scientific community.
Phat writes: You have no basis for calling a Creator of all seen and unseen a fictional character. I would think Hawking's instanton would be a made up entity and therefore fictional. Same for two branes banging together and creating the universe. or the bounce theory. They all sound like fiction to me as there is no evidence for any of them. If there was these guys would be plastering it all over this website. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ICANT writes: Didn't he say that he had proved (with his instanton) that there was no need for a God. You can't create something without a creator. He, and others, say that the universe can create itself.
Everyone is trying to get away from a creator. Scientists are trying to understand how theuniverse works.
Problem is anyone who does not believe the universe is eternal in existence believes in creation by some method. Even You. No they don't. And additionally, you are conflating creation, with 'The Creation'.
I have hundreds of posts where I mention Hawking and I never once said he believed in God. I wish he had for his sake. Phat said it and you backed him Up.
Phat writes: I have absolutely no problem with a Universe that began due to the Will of a Creator. Hawking did and ringo does. This is how you guys operate. You deliberately twist scientific findings so that your hangers on get the wrong message. It's dishonest. Here you are again.
ICANT writes: I have said he believed in a creator. He did not believe in 'a creator'. 'A creator' is not 'The Creator'. You are simply obfuscating, implying things that he does not believe. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
First of all lets get one thing straight.
Tangle,addressing ICANT writes: I never said that Hawking believed in a Creator. I said that Hawking had a problem with it. Learn to read.
Phat said it and you backed him Up.Tangle writes: Which is more bollux than anything you will find in the Bible. Even esteemed physics geniuses can be as wrong as any creationist. He, and others, say that the universe can create itself. Lets settle this issue. Do you believe that at one point in the past, perhaps at ICANTS imaginary (T=0) space where the maths break down that there was NOTHING? Or do you believe that there eternally was at least SOMETHING? And note one of my quotes in my signature:**************************************************************** The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy **************************************************************** So which came first? The WHO or the WHAT? There never could have been any point in time or before time that there was NOTHING. Unless you swallow the lie that the first observable thing was an idea in the Late Dr. Hawkings Mind. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
That doesn't make a bit of sense. If there is no answer that I want, that means I don't have a preferred answer.
If there was no answer you would want to me would mean you had all the answers there were. ICANT writes:
No. T=0 means exactly what is written. Time does not exist. T=Time 0=zero time, as none exists. T=0 is a position on the time line. It is not a quantity of time. We can not "see" all the way to T=0 or beyond it."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I never said that Hawking believed in a Creator. I said that Hawking had a problem with it. Learn to read. Ok, my apologies, I read that a different way.But good. Which is more bollux than anything you will find in the Bible. Even esteemed physics geniuses can be as wrong as any creationist. No. Esteemed physicists can be wrong, in which case others will correct their mistakes. Creationists are just wrong.
Do you believe that at one point in the past, perhaps at ICANTS imaginary (T=0) space where the maths break down that there was NOTHING? Or do you believe that there eternally was at least SOMETHING? I don't know or believe anything about those this. I don't even think that those terms have any meaning that we are able to even imagine.
And note one of my quotes in my signature: Your quote is silly. Atheists just don't believe in god. That's all you can say about them.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 625 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
I find it depressing to hear people say even great physicists (or other scientists, scholars, etc.) can be wrong. It's true, I suppose, but it's not like making a moral choice (to steal or not to steal) and being wrong. One can live one's life without making a wrong moral choice, but one can't study science without going down dead ends, making mistakes, trying and failing. In fact, that's practically the definition of science: try something and see if it works.
The scientists who are "wrong" are no more "wrong" than the explorers who tried to climb Mount Everest before Edmund Hillary (no, Hillary Clinton was not named after him: she was born in 1947 and Everest wasn't conquered until 1953).
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
SB writes: I find it depressing to hear people say even great physicists (or other scientists, scholars, etc.) can be wrong. I understand your feelings on this but being wrong is part of the process. Until the experimenters found Higgs's Boson, no one knew whether he was right or wrong about it - even him. If it wasn't there he'd be devastated but no-one would think he was wrong in trying. Newton was as mad as a sack of monkeys most of the time, being wrong about alchemy (and god) but he was mostly right about gravity. The bit he got wrong Einstein fixed, but he then got his sums wrong too with his cosmological constant - and seemingly regretted it ever after. It's a different kind of wrong to the way creationists are wrong though. It's a misstep on a long developmental road. Creationism is going nowhere but backwards. A mate of mine did a PhD and proved all his original ideas for it wrong. He was still awarded the PhD because often proving something to be wrong is a necessary step in understanding the next step. Best if you prove yourself wrong tho' It's harsh, but necessary because some ideas are just wrong when tested. That's how knowledge grows.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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