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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Right Side of the News | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
And my point is that in our justice system -and in reality in general - there is no possibility of no doubt. Look at yourself, who has no doubt about your conclusions no matter how wrong they are. That's why Jesus said that none of us is qualified to throw the first stone. My point was that since there have been so many mistakes made, finding innocent people guilty, that for the death penalty we should be holding out for no doubt at all.Izquierdo.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I got a phone call that interfered with my last post. I had to add that God told Noah that whoever kills a man must be killed by man.
As for no doubt, since we have DNA we can now have no doubt. That's the point.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Since God forbade capital punishment before Noah and Jesus forbade it after Noah, I don't see how the statement to Noah can be taken as a command. It seems like more of a prediction.
I had to add that God told Noah that whoever kills a man must be killed by man. Faith writes:
Even DNA is not infallible. As for no doubt, since we have DNA we can now have no doubt.Izquierdo.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Jesus did not forbid capital punishment so God's word to Noah stands. I know you have some way of claiming Jesus forbade it but He did not.
Yes even DNA isn't completely infallible, so we should depend on it only when it really gives us no doubt in a particular case.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: that whoever kills a man shall be killed by man, because God made man in His image. And many hands make light work but too many cooks spoil the broth. Pick one.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I suppose that sounds clever to some. It sounds wacko to me.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: I suppose that sounds clever to some. It sounds wacko to me. You can pick the bits you want out of the bible - you've just demonstrated that you can show that it says you should kill people and that you should not. Pick one. But you know, the idea that Jesus would say kill is utterly absurd. But you'll still say it. Go figure, I can't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are sounding even more confused. I'm not sure I can untangle it.
"Should kill people?" No, the Bible says we are to punish MURDERERS by death. That's not "killing people" in the indiscriminate way you are misconstruing it. DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GUILT AND INNOCENCE. Sheesh. Jesus never said we are to kill anyone. But he did not contradict the Old Testament either, where we are told that murderers are to be killed for their crime. Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament, of course, so as part of the Trinity He gave the Law through Moses. But when He came as the Savior He came without judgment, only to redeem us (I came not to condemn but to save). Without changing any of the Old Testament laws however. They still operate in the world and are to be honored in the governing of nations. Believers are saved OUT OF this worldly context into eternity. We have to live in it until the time comes.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: "Should kill people?" No, the Bible says we are to punish MURDERERS by death. That's not "killing people" in the indiscriminate way you are misconstruing it. If punishing murderers by death is not killing people, then I don't think I know what killing people means.
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GUILT AND INNOCENCE. Sheesh. Sheesh yourself.
Jesus never said we are to kill anyone. But he did not contradict the Old Testament either, where we are told that murderers are to be killed for their crime. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” Pick your verse.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sigh. I'm not going to bother. Unbelievers here have the nerve to pretend they know more of the Bible than the believers do. So continue in your delusion, I can't do anything to change anyone's mind here.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: Sigh. I'm not going to bother. Unbelievers here have the nerve to pretend they know more of the Bible than the believers do. So continue in your delusion, I can't do anything to change anyone's mind here. It's the weirdest thing, atheists can read the same book as you do. And even weirder, atheists were often believers too so know exactly the same things. And one thing they know for absolute certainty is that the Jesus character in the book would NOT support the death penalty.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
They know nothing for sure. The ex-Christians here are a pretty ignorant bunch, which may be why they are no longer believers -- they didn't get it right in the first place. The theology of these unbelievers is pretty pathetic even when they know some of the Bible.
Jesus did not rescind anything from the Mosaic Law. Even what He said about the "eye for an eye" law is completely misunderstood these days. He is preaching to individual believers about how we are to deal with evl that comes against us personally. He is NOT saying the law itself is wrong, which couldn't be the case since it is absolutely perfect justice as stated. Jesus did not preach to governments. He did not change anything the Old Testament decreed about governmental applications of law -- meaning the community as a whole. That includes the death penalty for murder. He preached only to individual believers, and that's an entirely different thing from the laws that govern whole communities. Here's Got Questions on the subject of eye for an eye:
Besides Exodus 21, the law of “an eye for an eye” is mentioned twice in the Old Testament (Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21). Each time, the phrase is used in the context of a case being judged before a civil authority such as a judge. “An eye for an eye” was thus intended to be a guiding principle for lawgivers and judges; it was never to be used to justify vigilantism or settling grievances personally. In the New Testament, it seems the Pharisees and scribes had taken the “eye for an eye” principle and applied it to everyday personal relationships. They taught that seeking personal revenge was acceptable. If someone punched you, you could punch him back; if someone insulted you, he was fair game for your insults. The religious leaders of Jesus’ day ignored the judicial basis of the giving of that law. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus counters the common teaching of personal retaliation: “You have heard that it was said, ”Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you . . .” (Matthew 5:38-39). Jesus then proceeds to reveal God’s heart concerning interpersonal relationships: “Do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you” (Matthew 5:39-42).
In giving this “new” command, Jesus is not nullifying the Old Testament law (Matthew 5:17). Rather, He is separating the responsibility of the government (to punish evildoers justly) from the responsibility we all have on a personal level before God to love our enemies. We should not seek retribution for personal slights. We are to ignore personal insults (the meaning of “turn the other cheek”). Christians are to be willing to give more of their material goods, time, and labor than required, even if the demands upon us are unjust. We should loan to those who want to borrow, love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us (verses 43-48). Enforcing “an eye for an eye” is the magistrate’s job; forgiving our enemies is ours. We see this played out today every time a victim stands up in court to publicly forgive a convicted criminal”the forgiveness is personal and real, but the judge still justly demands that the sentence be carried out. Jesus’ limiting of the “eye for an eye” principle in no way prohibits self-defense or the forceful protection of the innocent from harm. The actions of duly appointed agents of the government, such as police officers and the military, to protect citizens and preserve the peace are not in question. Jesus’ command to turn the other cheek applies to personal relationships, not judicial policy. The principle of “an eye for an eye” is meant as a judicial policy, not as a rule for interpersonal relationships. The believer in Christ is guided by Jesus’ words to forgive. The Christian is radically different from those who follow the natural inclination to respond in kind. And here is Got Questions specifically on the death penalty:
When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7). This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament law; they did not truly care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God is the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11). The apostle Paul definitely recognized the power of the government to institute capital punishment where appropriate (Romans 13:1-7). How should a Christian view the death penalty? First, we must remember that God has instituted capital punishment in His Word; therefore, it would be presumptuous of us to think that we could institute a higher standard. God has the highest standard of any being; He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself. Therefore, He loves to an infinite degree, and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has wrath to an infinite degree, and it is all maintained in a perfect balance. Second, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. Christians should never rejoice when the death penalty is employed, but at the same time, Christians should not fight against the government’s right to execute the perpetrators of the most evil of crimes. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 199 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Do you eat shellfish? Mix meat and dairy?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Perfect example of the ignorant way unbelievers read the Bible. The food laws were among the class of laws rescinded through Jesus' sacrifice and the extension of the gospel to the Gentiles. Peter received a vision that God explained to him meant there is no longer any unclean food. But unbeleivers persist with their utterly ignorant claim to know the Bible better than the believers. This has been answered so many times by now it's amazing that the same ignorant challenge is trotted out over and over with this apparent pride in supposedly oneupping the believers.
Yes I eat cheeseburgers too because that no longer violates a law I have to follow. But you'll never learn, right? You'll come up with this same mistake again and again no matter what I or anybody says. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 199 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Yeah, that's the story. No changes to the law except the ones you don't like.
I'm no Biblical scholar, but I don't remember Jesus defining so precisely what parts stayed and what parts went. Can you enlighten me?
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