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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1312 of 3207 (858222)
07-18-2019 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1311 by Stile
07-18-2019 12:24 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
God is an inherently irrational concept.
Because there is no evidence for the concept.
A concept doesn't need evidence. There is no evidence for unicorns but it is not an irrational concept. There's a whole realm of literature - science fiction, fantasy - built on concepts that are not evidenced but not irrational.
Stile writes:
Sharkfin soup has evidence that it exists.
God does not.
But you were looking in the wrong place for evidence of sharkfin soup. You can't claim there is "no evidence" if you're looking in the wrong place.
Stile writes:
How is Sharkfin soup's #1, #2, and #3 the same as God's #1, #2 and #3?
As long as you make the mistake of calling God an irrational concept, you will come up with the same wrong conclusion.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1311 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 12:24 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1313 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 12:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1314 of 3207 (858224)
07-18-2019 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1313 by Stile
07-18-2019 12:46 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
Sharkfin soup existing on McDonald's menu is a rational concept - Sharkfin soup and McDonald's menu both have evidence supporting their existence.
Again, rationality has nothing to do with evidence.
Stile writes:
I am not claiming that God does not exist as a concept.
I am claiming that God does not exist.
You are claiming (Message 1302) that, "God is an inherently irrational concept." It is not.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1313 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 12:46 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1315 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 1:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1316 of 3207 (858226)
07-18-2019 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1315 by Stile
07-18-2019 1:11 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
believing that something exists without evidence that it exists is irrational - no?
Believing that the concept is real may be irrational. The concept itself is not. You're moving the goalposts again.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1315 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 1:11 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1317 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 1:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1318 of 3207 (858244)
07-18-2019 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1317 by Stile
07-18-2019 1:41 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
I've explained how this is not applicable and how I'm not moving goalposts.
You have not explained in any way how the concept of God is inherently irrational. You just keep asserting it. If you want to redefine irrational" along with "know", etc., it's going to be difficult to figure out what your "context" is.
As long as the logic is internally consistent, the concept of God is not irrational. Thus, it is not different from the concept of sharkfin soup. If you contrive to search only in places where you don't expect to find them, you can claim non-existence of either, but your claim will not be very convincing.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1317 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 1:41 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1319 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-18-2019 11:54 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1323 by Stile, posted 07-19-2019 9:13 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1324 of 3207 (858300)
07-19-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1319 by Sarah Bellum
07-18-2019 11:54 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
It's irrational.
You assert but you don't explain. What is wrong with the internal logic?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1319 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-18-2019 11:54 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1326 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 11:47 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1327 of 3207 (858304)
07-19-2019 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1323 by Stile
07-19-2019 9:13 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
Irrational (from the dictionary): not logical or reasonable
So explain how the concept of God is not logical or reasonable.
Stile writes:
Irrational (in the specific context of this discussion): thinking/proposing/claiming that an idea exists in reality when there is no evidence to support that the idea actually exists in reality in the first place.
But that doesn't agree with the definition that you just posted. You can't just arbitrarily dictate that something must exist to be a rational idea.
Stile writes:
Sounds very "not logical or reasonable" to me - do you have any disagreement?
Of course I disagree. See above.
Stile writes:
Do you agree that the idea that God exists in reality has no evidence to support it?
Again, evidence has nothing to do with it. If there was evidence to support the premise of God, then the conclusion that God exists would be true. But the premise does not have to be true for the logic to be valid.
Stile writes:
But the logic isn't internally consistent... unless you'd like to explain how believing something actually exists without any evidence to suggest that it exists in the first place is actually "rational?"
The logic is not about existence.
Stile writes:
You will have to explain how banana keys are rational.
You will have to explain how crab chairs are rational.
Galloping goalposts. I have never said that either of those is rational.
I have said that the concept of God is no less rational than the concept of sharkfin soup. The evidence for either may or may not be available - depending on where you look. You can contrive not to find evidence for sharkfin soup by deliberately looking in the wrong place. That does not mean that sharkfin soup does not exist and it does not mean that the idea of sharkfin soup is irrational.
Stile writes:
Sharkfin soup has evidence of it's existence.
God does not.
Goalposts moving again. You said yourself that you looked only on the McDonalds menu for sharkfin soup. As far as your investigation is concerned, sharkfin soup does not exist. And by your logic, the concept of sharkfin soup is irrational.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1323 by Stile, posted 07-19-2019 9:13 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1399 by Stile, posted 07-22-2019 9:10 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1328 of 3207 (858305)
07-19-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1326 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 11:47 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
If it ever was rational to imagine a thunderbolt-throwing being on a mountaintop back in Classical times (when humans may not have known any better), it certainly isn't nowadays.
What, specifically, is irrational about it? We have thunderbolt-throwing technology of our own now.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1326 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 11:47 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1330 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 12:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1331 of 3207 (858310)
07-19-2019 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1330 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 12:48 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
Are you asking what's irrational about the image of a bearded, naked man on a mountaintop gripping a chunk of glowng, superheated plasma with an electrical current running through it, preparing to propel it down to the ground?
Yes.
"a chunk of glowng, superheated plasma with an electrical current running through it" is your imagination. Substitute rocket-propelled grenade and then explain how the image is irrational.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1330 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 12:48 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1332 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 12:57 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1334 by Phat, posted 07-19-2019 1:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1335 of 3207 (858314)
07-19-2019 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1332 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 12:57 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
So the ancient Greeks believed in a handsome naked man on the top of Mount Olympus with . . . a rocket-propelled grenade?
I'm still detecting irrationality.
Get your detector fixed. The Greeks may have described it in a different way but there is nothing irrational about the idea.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1332 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 12:57 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1337 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 1:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1336 of 3207 (858316)
07-19-2019 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1334 by Phat
07-19-2019 1:05 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Phat writes:
I would suggest that rocket powered grenades are irrational.
You would be wrong.
They exist, so they fit even Stile's definition.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1334 by Phat, posted 07-19-2019 1:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1338 of 3207 (858318)
07-19-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1333 by Phat
07-19-2019 1:04 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Phat writes:
I think that ringos idea of eternally existing chemicals that become what we are today is more irrational...but some people prefer that hypothetical line of thought for one reason only---we can do the maths that support it.
Rationality is not about what you prefer.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1333 by Phat, posted 07-19-2019 1:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1341 by Phat, posted 07-19-2019 2:00 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1339 of 3207 (858320)
07-19-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1337 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 1:11 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
At the time, perhaps, Greeks didn't know any better, so maybe, at the time, it might have been considered a rational explanation.
But two and a half millennia later?
I asked and you didn't answer: What specifically is irrational about the idea? Where is the lack of logic?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1337 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 1:11 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1342 by AZPaul3, posted 07-19-2019 2:08 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1343 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 2:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1344 of 3207 (858351)
07-19-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1341 by Phat
07-19-2019 2:00 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Phat writes:
I wish you eggheaded atheists would stop trying to frame a world view which we all must adapt that eliminates modern religion.
Nobody's forcing you to accept a sensible worldview.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1341 by Phat, posted 07-19-2019 2:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1347 of 3207 (858356)
07-19-2019 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1343 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 2:22 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
What's irrational about the notion of a man holding a bit of plasma with an enormous electrical current running through it?
If you're going to ignore what I say, this could take a long time.
I did point out that that is your description of God. We don't have to accept the Gospel According to Sarah Bellum literally, do we?
I did point out that the Greeks might possibly have construed some technology more advanced than theirs - some technology even such as ours - as literal lightning. But it doesn't have to literally be lightning for the idea to be rational.
So let's try again: Do you have any rational reason for thinking the idea of God is irrational?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1343 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 2:22 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1348 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 5:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1349 of 3207 (858364)
07-19-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1348 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 5:54 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
Are you insisting that we judge the rationality of the idea of gods by those same standards today?
Does rationality have an expiry date? I would think that rational is rational, regardless of the time frame.
You and Stile both seem to be making the mistake of confusing rational with right. I say that an idea can be rational whether it has any basis in reality or not.
You and Stile are calling all fiction irrational. I say that the logic/reason/rationality are separate from the truth value of the premises.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1348 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 5:54 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1350 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 7:39 PM ringo has replied

  
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