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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1861 of 3207 (860240)
08-06-2019 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1857 by ringo
08-06-2019 11:57 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Same as for anything else: Those claiming that the idea has a connection to reality need to show that connection to reality.
Without that - it's irrational for them to suggest that the idea should have any effect on our knowledge about reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1857 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1862 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:17 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1863 of 3207 (860242)
08-06-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1858 by ringo
08-06-2019 11:59 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
I can know how to bake a cake. I can demonstrate to your satisfaction and anybody else's that I know it.
You can no more demonstrate that you "know" God (does not) exist than Faith can demonstrate that she "knows" He does.
I agree you can know how to bake a cake: There is a connection between cakes and reality and your performance. Meet those requirements and you know you can bake a cake. I am aware of the requirements, I don't doubt it's possible for you to meet them - therefore I cannot say: I know ringo cannot bake a cake.
Of course, for God's existence - there is no connection from imagination to reality.
Without that - I know that God does not exist.
It's demonstrated like this: There is no connection from the imagination of God to reality.
That's it.
It's easy to break that demonstration for all other things we think can exist:
-ringo baking cakes
-ringo existing
-cakes existing
-ringo being a person
-people being able to bake cakes
If those all didn't exist... if there was no connection between cakes or ringo-baking-them to reality, then I could say "I know ringo cannot bake a cake."
But... there is, so I can't say it.
For God?
-no connection between imagination and reality.
-Therefore: I know that God does not exist.
Just provide the connection from imagination to reality for God and it all goes away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1858 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1864 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:23 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1866 of 3207 (860245)
08-06-2019 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1864 by ringo
08-06-2019 12:23 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
Then you can stop saying that I can't know anything.
Only if you stop saying you can't know negative things.
If you can't know negative things, then you can't know positive things either - because the reason you can't know either is the same (something not currently part of our "current information" may exist that shows it to be wrong.)
That's not a demonstration. That should be fairly obvious since there is no connection to reality. there is no cake.
It is a demonstration.
And it's simple to overcome - just provide the connection between God and reality.
Without doing that - there is no connection between God and reality.
Without a connection between God and reality - I know that God does not exist.
Again, you're the one making a positive claim that the negative is true. The onus is on you to back up your claim.
It is backed up:
Without a connection between God and reality - I know that God does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1864 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1870 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:35 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1867 of 3207 (860247)
08-06-2019 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1734 by Sarah Bellum
08-02-2019 11:44 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
The problem is that if someone says their deity somehow interacts with us, it's easy to test and show that nothing's happening; and if they say their deity doesn't pay any attention to us, then there's nothing to talk about.
Exactly.
The only wiggle room is attempting to create confusion:
Like suggesting that "knowledge" is absolute.
-it isn't, knowledge is tentative and based on our currently available information
Or suggesting that an idea of God is rational, therefore the idea-that-God-exists is rational
-this is very illogical and rather absurd
Or suggesting that "we can't know negative things."
-also clearly wrong, and becomes clear when you remember that knowledge is tentative and based on our currently available information

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1734 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-02-2019 11:44 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1869 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-06-2019 12:35 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1874 of 3207 (860254)
08-06-2019 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1862 by ringo
08-06-2019 12:17 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
If nobody was claiming a connection to reality, how would you know whether there was a connection to reality?
Because knowledge isn't based on absolutes.
Knowledge is based on the information available to us. You keep making this same error. Again, and again, and again.
If nobody was claiming a connection to reality - then the information available to us shows there's no connection to reality.
Therefore, the tentative conclusion is that I know God does not exist - because there's no connection between imagination and reality based on the information available to us.
And, since all knowledge is tentative, and all knowledge is based on the information available to us - we can leave these out as they are redundant:
I know God does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1862 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1879 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:48 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1880 of 3207 (860263)
08-06-2019 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1870 by ringo
08-06-2019 12:35 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
You've already admitted that I can know something. I will not admit that you can "know" a negative in the same way. So no.
But it is the same way:
You can tentatively know a positive based on the information available to us.
You can tentatively know a negative based on the information available to us.
All knowledge is tentative.
All knowledge is based on the information available to us.
Therefore, we can leave these out as they are redundant:
You can know a positive.
You can know a negative.
ringo writes:
Stile writes:
If you can't know negative things, then you can't know positive things either...
Nonsense.
Then explain why you can't know a negative, and why this doesn't also apply to knowing a positive.
I understand if you think knowledge is absolute.. but knowledge is not absolute - therefore your logic is in error.
You keep demanding a connection to reality. Now you show one.
You can't just wave your magic wand and pull the curtain away and say, "Voila! Elephants don't exist." That is not a demonstration of reality.
The reality is: There is no connection between the imagination of God and reality.
If you don't think that's an accurate description of reality, I'm open to more information. Just provide it.
Without providing it - the claim of reality stands.
Since there is no connection between the imagination of God and reality - I know that God does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1870 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:35 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1883 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:54 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1884 of 3207 (860267)
08-06-2019 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1879 by ringo
08-06-2019 12:48 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
You can not say, "I know not-X," because of a lack of information.
I'm not doing this.
Are you saying we have no available information?
Are you saying people haven't irrationally searched for God for thousands of years and found nothing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1879 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1885 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:57 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1886 of 3207 (860269)
08-06-2019 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1883 by ringo
08-06-2019 12:54 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
Demonstrate it.
Failure to find it is not a demonstration. It's a lack of demonstration.
Of course 'failure to find' is a demonstration of not finding something in our available information.
Again - knowledge is not absolute. Same error, again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1883 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1887 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 1:01 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1888 of 3207 (860271)
08-06-2019 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1885 by ringo
08-06-2019 12:57 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
I'm saying they have rationally searched and some of them have found.
If someone rationally searched for God's existence - please inform us of the rational link between God and reality.
Without that, it was an irrational search.
And if they found God - please inform us of the rational tests that show God's existence.
Without that, it was an irrational claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1885 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 12:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1890 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 1:15 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1889 of 3207 (860272)
08-06-2019 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1887 by ringo
08-06-2019 1:01 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
And lack of knowledge is not knowledge. Same error again.
And no one is making a claim on lack-of-knowedge.
I'm making a claim on the information available to us.
Do you dispute that we have information available to us?
And that, according to this information, there is no link between God and reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1887 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 1:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1891 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 1:17 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1892 of 3207 (860276)
08-06-2019 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1890 by ringo
08-06-2019 1:15 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Even if the God they found fails all rational tests, that does not mean the search was irrational.
True. This doesn't make the search rational either, though.
The search's rationality does not depend on anything found or not.
The search's rationality depends on the reasoning to do the search.
If you do a search simply because "I want to find something" - this is irrational. There is no link to reality from the imagination.
If you do a search because some fact leads you to believe you'll find something - this is rational.
Example:
1. "If God exists, He exists everywhere and therefore is in the next room."
2. "Let's search the next room!"
3. *searches next room*
You cannot say this is "rational" or "irrational."
It all depends on what part you look at.
Searching the next room is rational if you accept the premise of #1.
Of course, with no link to reality - premise #1 is irrational in itself.
Therefore, it's both depending on context:
The search is rational - based upon accepting the premise and logically following from there.
The search is irrational - based upon noting that the premise it's based upon is irrational to consider it's validity in the first place (there's no link from the imagination of this premise to reality.)
You seem to be focusing on the search being rational because one accepts the premise.
To this - I say: who cares? Almost everything becomes rational if you make up the right premise for it.
I'm caring about a search being rationally done based upon whatever-you're-looking-for actually being a part of reality.
Without a link-to-reality for the idea of God existing... this search is irrational (in the only meaningful context.)
You cannot avoid the fact that "to be rational" God requires a link from imagination to reality.
This includes searches for God, and findings of God.
(One can imagine the possibility of finding God during an irrational search... if such an idea gains a link to reality... then I'll have to change my position - regardless of the search itself being irrational.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1890 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 1:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1902 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 5:10 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1893 of 3207 (860277)
08-06-2019 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1891 by ringo
08-06-2019 1:17 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
You're claiming that because we have not found it, it doesn't exist.
Ah - you've just been wrong on my position this whole time. That explains a lot.
Here, I'll spell it out again:
I'm not claiming that because we have not found God - therefore God does not exist.
I am claiming that I know God does not exist.
Here's the argument in a nutshell again:
-all knowledge is tentative
-all knowledge is based on the information we have available to us
-things we know not to exist do not have a link from imagination to reality
-within the information available to us, we do not have a link from the imagination of God to reality
-Therefore, based on the information we have available to us the tentative conclusion is that "I know God does not exist."
-Because all knowledge is tentative, and all knowledge is based on the information we have available to us: we can remove this text as it is redundant.
-Therefore, "I know God does not exist."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1891 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 1:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1903 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 5:11 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1930 of 3207 (860355)
08-07-2019 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1902 by ringo
08-06-2019 5:10 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
There doesn't need to be a link before you do the search. The whole point of the search is to see if there is a link.
But there's still no link.
If there's no link - then it's irrational to suggest that the search is going to turn up something that will overturn the current conclusion of "I know that God does not exist."
Not at all. I've said the exact opposite: The reasoning does not depend on the premises being true.
Can you agree that, given no link to reality, the reasoning for the search for God has no bearing on the reasoning of whether or not God actually exists?
That's not a fact. Rationality does not depend on reality.
In a general sense: true.
But... since we're talking about God existing in reality... rationality as far as this argument is concerned certainly does.
Any of your attempts to use the general sense of the word "rational" to apply to God's actual existence in reality being rational are just wrong. You can't do that.
Even if a search is rational to conduct (based on some other logic)... it doesn't change the fact that there's no link between God and reality, and therefore it has no bearing on the conclusion that I know God does not exist because there's no link between God and reality.
I can say that if A is true then B must be true. There is nothing irrational about that statement even if A has no connection to reality.
Very true.
But who cares?
Unless, of course, you're attempting to say that because of this... we should consider that B actually is a part of reality.
Which is illogical without showing a link to reality of B (or A).
This is what you're doing. You're trying to say "look this is rational!" and then say "because this is rational... it should be considered as a possibility in reality!"
Which is understood to be totally false, illogical and unreliable.
Therefore - it's illogical - it's irrational.
The only way you get to say something should be considered as a possibility in reality is to form rational link between the imagination of the idea and reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1902 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 5:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1942 by ringo, posted 08-07-2019 11:30 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1931 of 3207 (860357)
08-07-2019 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1903 by ringo
08-06-2019 5:11 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
That's just lame schoolboy semantics.
If you want to suggest that knowledge should be considered absolute - you can make your case.
You will be sorely disappointed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1903 by ringo, posted 08-06-2019 5:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1944 by ringo, posted 08-07-2019 11:32 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1932 of 3207 (860359)
08-07-2019 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1928 by Tangle
08-07-2019 2:07 AM


Re: Protestant is Evil
Tangle writes:
Sarah Bellum writes:
the idea of god is simply irrational.
So you and Stile say. But it's simply an assertion.
Not true.
I don't think the idea of god is irrational.
I think that thinking the idea "god is a part of reality" is irrational as long as there is no link between God and reality.
Wouldn't you agree with that?
Our iron age predecessors were wrong to think that some powerful being was causing lightening, but without knowing real causation or being able to know the real causation it was a rational idea.
I agree. Most iron age predecessors did not have the advantage of going through the Dark Ages and emerging out the other side - when we are now aware that in order to rationally consider an idea actually existing - we need a rational link from the imagination to reality. Without that - it's irrational to consider the possibility of the imagination actually existing.
You don't have to accept the arguments - and I don't - but they are rational.
True.
Just simply irrelevant to the claim that I know God does not exist.
(Because, here, you are just talking about a general "rationality" - you are not talking about a rational link between imagination and reality.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1928 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2019 2:07 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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