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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ringo writes: Nope. Dark matter. What is the reason to think we will find God behind dark matter?From what you've offered - it is the exact same reason to think we will find "that ringo-actually-cannot-bake-cakes, he only thought he could" behind dark matter. But - these are irrational rabbit holes.The kind we ignore. If you have an actual, rational reason to suggest that we could find God behind dark matter - please supply it.What is the link between imagination and God existing behind dark matter?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Until you look behind the dark matter, that statement is false.
We have looked - scoured all our available information. Stile writes:
How can you know a priori that there's no reason to look? ringo writes:
Sure we can. We can not say the idea is irrational before we look. If there's no rational link from imagination to reality that gives us a reason to look - then looking is irrational."Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns" -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
You have it backwards. What is the reason to think we won't? What is the reason to think we will find God behind dark matter? There was no reason to think we would never find a Northwest Passage until we had explored every possibility. "We never found it in the past," was not an excuse to stop looking."Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns" -- Woody Guthrie
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's the watered-down Christianity that's willing to live and let live. Which I guess is a way of saying they don't stand for anything, but true Christianity shouldn't try to force anything on anyone either. Maybe people get offended when given the salvation message of course.
The hard-line ones, the bible-thumpers, Christian Identity, screaming televangelists and abortion-clinic bombers are the ones you've got to worry about. Watch your back when the prayer meetings break up, and cross to the other side of the street. I had to look up "Christian identity" because I'd never heard of it, certainly doesn't sound Christian. Most churches preach against the televangelists and try to warn people against them. There are some good ones but a lot of them "fleece the flock" for money and live hugely extravagant lives, which is certainly not Christian either. Nor is violence against abortion clinics, which is thankfully fairly rare. By the way, you say, "you know absolutely zip about any of this." If that were true, you'd be writing reams and reams of stuff to try to get me to know where you're coming from. But you're not. You may be right. Sorry.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
stile writes: Perhaps that God is more likely to exist if you imagine that He will be actually useful and necessary in your life should you find Him. You have already admitted that you believe He is unnecessary but that you would be "open to evidence." I think you have already made your conclusion and use this whole argument as a logical justification for you not needing Him in the first place. What is the link between imagination and God existing behind dark matter? Add By Edit: I suppose that this is true for me as well. If jars idea of God was the reality rather than my own idea, I likely would prefer that such a God never be found nor that such a God actually be the real One. Edited by Thugpreacha, : upon reflectionChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
SB writes: This makes me think. If Jesus (as we understand Him) took The Authoritarians Quiz that was designed to measure such stuff, how authoritarian would He be? Likely not the same as todays Right Wing Christians. Jesus is portrayed as being uncompromising toward hypocrisy and legalism, but He also will not tolerate sin. The question may then become what we define sin as now versus what sin was defined as then. I suspect that it has not changed much, but then again, critics will say that this whole idea of authority under Gods supposed rules is negotiable...(since they believe that humans made up the whole God thing anyway! ) It's the watered-down Christianity that's willing to live and let live.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ringo writes: Stile writes: We have looked - scoured all our available information. Until you look behind the dark matter, that statement is false. Sure it is: 1. "Looking behind dark matter" isn't currently available to us yet.2. There's no rational reason to suggest that God will be found behind dark matter. How can you know a priori that there's no reason to look? When there's no reason.Please, if you have one - just provide it. All it has to do is have a rational link from the imagination of God to the possible reality of God. Without that - all we're left with is irrational imaginary ideas with no connection to reality.Obviously, it's rational to ignore such things when concerned about what we can rationally know.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ringo writes: Stile writes: What is the reason to think we will find God behind dark matter? You have it backwards. What is the reason to think we won't? No. You have it backwards.We're not talking about irrational no-connection-to-reality possibilities. We're talking about our rational knowledge. The rational reasons to think we won't find God behind dark matter are: 1. There are only irrational reasons, with no connection to reality, to think that God could exist behind dark matter.2. Every time in the past - when there have only been irrational reasons to think God could exist somewhere - and we end up being able to check that place - no evidence for God is ever found. For thousands of years. 3. There is no evidence to suggest that God even exists in the first place at all let alone "only behind dark matter." There was no reason to think we would never find a Northwest Passage until we had explored every possibility. "We never found it in the past," was not an excuse to stop looking. Of course there was.The NWP is a water-throughway. Before we found the NWP - we had found other water-throughways. We knew that water-throughways exist. Therefore - it's possible to find another one in a place we haven't searched yet. There was a link to reality that suggested the NWP could exist (because we knew water-throughways can exist.)What is the link to reality that suggests that God could exist? At least one water-throughway exists.How many Gods do we know of existing? This, again, is the difference you seem unable to deal with.It doesn't go away. Edited by Stile, : No reason given.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Thugpreacha writes: Perhaps that God is more likely to exist if you imagine that He will be actually useful and necessary in your life should you find Him. I do imagine such a thing.It's very easy to imagine. Who wouldn't want an all-powerful, all-caring being supporting them throughout their life? The idea sounds fantastic! I imagine it all the time. You have already admitted that you believe He is unnecessary but that you would be "open to evidence." According to the evidence we have available to us - yes.According to my imagination - not at all. I think you have already made your conclusion and use this whole argument as a logical justification for you not needing Him in the first place. Well - you're wrong.I think you're desperately looking for "a reason" while Stile-is-wrong about something so you can feel better about believing in God yourself. Personally - I think that's a terrible reason to require in order to believe in God. It shows how weak your faith is. But - what you think, or what I think - doesn't really matter, does it? What matters is what "is." And I'm the only one who knows my thoughts and my feelings.And you're the only one who knows your thoughts and your feelings. I'll allow you to be highest-authority on what Thugpreacha thinks, if you allow me to be the highest-authority on what Stile thinks.But if you refuse to accept that and make your own uninformed ideas up about what Stile thinks. Then you can't be surprised when I make up my own uninformed ideas up about what Thugpreacha thinks. I suppose that this is true for me as well. If jars idea of God was the reality rather than my own idea, I likely would prefer that such a God never be found nor that such a God actually be the real One. Are you interested in "what makes Thugpreacha feel better?" or "what is true about reality?"One is not "more important" than the other. It's also quite possible to be interested in both. Of course - imagination and subjective ideas are incredibly helpful to one, but not the other.And objective, rational information is incredibly helpful to one as well, but not a requirement of the other. I find it's a lot easier to keep their ideas separated - as they are separate ideas.Confusing the two leads to conflicts with reality - which are hard to overcome when wrong.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
I have: because you can't find anything if you don't look.
ringo writes:
When there's no reason. How can you know a priori that there's no reason to look?Please, if you have one - just provide it. Stile writes:
How do you know there is no link unless you look for one? All it has to do is have a rational link from the imagination of God to the possible reality of God."Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns" -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
That's irrational. We can't know unless we look.
There are only irrational reasons, with no connection to reality, to think that God could exist behind dark matter. Stile writes:
Northwest Passage.
Every time in the past - when there have only been irrational reasons to think God could exist somewhere - and we end up being able to check that place - no evidence for God is ever found. For thousands of years. Stile writes:
There's never any evidence until we look. There is no evidence to suggest that God even exists in the first place at all let alone "only behind dark matter.""Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns" -- Woody Guthrie
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ringo writes: I have: because you can't find anything if you don't look. Oh - so you can't bake cakes, either?Because we can't find out if you're-actually-baking-cakes-or-not if don't look behind dark matter. Maybe behind dark matter we find out that ringo actually can't bake cakes - and only thinks he can right now. Sorry - this is not a rational reason to consider that God may exist behind dark matter.Just as it's not a rational reason to consider that ringo can't bake cakes. Because it excludes the context that our knowledge is tentative and based on our currently available information.
How do you know there is no link unless you look for one? We have looked everywhere within our currently available information.If you'd like to suggest a rational reason that God may exist elsewhere - please provide it. Otherwise, you're being irrational and you can't even know that you can bake a cake.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ringo writes: Northwest Passage. Exactly.Water-throughways exist - we knew this before searching for the NWP. What sort of Gods do we know to exist before searching for God behind dark matter? There's never any evidence until we look. Exactly.And, without a rational suggestion that evidence can be found somewhere... we're left with irrational, imaginary ideas that are not linked to reality. It's irrational to think that imaginary-ideas-not-linked-to-reality should affect our knowledge of what we know to exist.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Don't be silly. We don't need to look behind the dark matter for what we've already found.
Because we can't find out if you're-actually-baking-cakes-or-not if don't look behind dark matter. Stile writes:
No, we know that a place exists, behind the dark matter, where we currently have no ability to look. Just like they had no ability to cross the ice barriers to look for the Northwest Passage. We have looked everywhere within our currently available information. As long as we know there is a place where we haven't looked, we can not claim to know what we'd find if we could look."Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns" -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
We don't have to know that something exists before we look for it. What sort of Gods do we know to exist before searching for God behind dark matter?"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns" -- Woody Guthrie
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