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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
And what kind of God?ringo writes: This is another error that I attribute (in general) to critical thinkers who fancy themselves logical and not prone to mythos or legend. You all want a BIG God, should One exist. When the whole point of the Trinity and that view is to make GOD personal rather than extremely huuuuge, (like "The Force" in Star Wars. ) PaulK doesn't get it. He claims that it's our job to define reality. jar doesn't get it. Rather than dare to believe in an illogical God(according to his own reasoning) he would rather paint a picture of a misguided religion full of hucksters trying to sell a product that is distastefully easy. Perhaps jars morality demanded that humans pay their own way rather than get a free pass. The other side maintains that a free pass is the only way for the human-animal to make it---a leap of faith as it is. A big one? My POV is that God is knowable and approachable. Due entirely to His initiative. Critics claim it is the God I want. Damn right it is. Some disinterested force hiding behind a galaxy somewhere is irrelevant to me. If He is the real God, may He smite me forever for daring to ignore Him. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The "modern" concept of a creator deity who wasn't himself created, who somehow knows and commands everything but also allows free will, who punishes evil and rewards good, except everywhere we might be actually able to look for those rewards and punishments, who is praised for enabling the winning touchdown but not blamed for the blocked, losing field goal attempt, that idea doesn't even have a fig-leaf of rationality! It seems to me it is the human definitions and expectations that are illogical. A Deity by definition need not fit our terms of rationality. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'm moving this argument out of the science-based topic. It resumes in another thread.
Message 309 Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theo writes: But it does show you have no actual arguments. And you have no actual beliefs. I don't defend religious belief with facts or evidence. To me, those are irrelevant arguments. To you, I have empty beliefs. Hence why we never agree.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Resuming this discussion from a Bible Study Topic:
If God did turn out to exist, you would likely pay Him far more respect than most Christians now do. Tangle writes: Here is how I would explain your statement using my own "preachy" dogma. Not if he's the evil bastard in your book I wouldn't. There are 3 levels concerning God and a given human.You all would add a 4th question: Which God are we talking about? I always move past that one because in my mind it is silly. God is God...either He exists or He does not, but He most definitely is not a relativistic individuated subjective concept. To clarify, however, we can talk of the God I market. There are 3 basic levels in a relationship.1) Knowing about someone. Take the late Kobe Bryant. None of us have met the man. All that we have to go on is what we saw of him through videos, live games, recorded interviews, and journalism stories. Thus we knew about Kobe. 2) Meeting Someone. This would be the day you got an autograph from him and he may have even spent a minute shooting a hoop or two with you. You caught a glimpse of his humanity one on one. This is what believers claim happens when they get born again. Critics say it is exclusivist, fantasy-driven, and unevidenced. So be it. We believe we have met the Creator of all seen and unseen through his human Character of Jesus Christ Who we believe is alive eternally and knowable in the present through the comforter known as The Holy Spirit. We believe that when people become aware of this presence they have essentially "met God." Level 3 is internalizing the Holy Communion and decreasing (your own ego and selfishness) while allowing the Holy Spirit to increase within you. Many skeptics get as far as level two and conclude that logic and evidence dictate no way to "meet" God...either as Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. Im not blaming or criticizing you for this. it is how you are wired. My point is this: You claim that the only reference we have is in the book. Thus I cannot explain to you the idea that God is before the book, interpreted by humans during the times of the book until the present, and eternally present to the limits of the future. Thus when you say [qs]Tangle writes: I don't limit Him to what was written by humans. You obviously will again call it a made up belief. Not if he's the evil bastard in your book I wouldn't.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And we say you're deluded. People these days are having their chosen Faith challenged. There will be always science to keep us informed about the most rational way to live. There will also be more whackos and nutjobs coming out of the woodwork in the coming months. Hang on! The ride is bumpy and getting bumpier! May everyone at EVC stay safe and healthy. (and rational )The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And we say you're deluded. People these days are having their chosen Faith challenged. There will be always science to keep us informed about the most rational way to live. There will also be more whackos and nutjobs coming out of the woodwork in the coming months. Hang on! The ride is bumpy and getting bumpier! May everyone at EVC stay safe and healthy. (and rational )The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Sarah Bellum writes: We know that the concept of a Deity is not an evidenced thing. As for said deity being logical, I think that He is.
In the same way that the process of Tarot card reading is not a logical method of foretelling the future, the idea of a deity (by whatever you mean your deity to be, whether an explanation for lightning bolts or a morality car wash to clean away your sins) is not a logical thing. Look at how the process of my development occurred.I grew up in a Christian culture. The Deity was spoken of in the media of my time and by people whom I knew, though very rarely as I recall. If I had grown up nearer the Bible Belts Buckle, I may have had a different story. My point is that even within a culture,(Western Christian/secular) the ideas about God are varied and not at all the summation of the God that culture collectively accepts. I saw cartoons about God. An old man with a long white beard and a scroll, taking names or making notes. Were I to turn on the TV, a dozen preachers all blathered on about peace, joy, and holiness...but I looked at them and not God. I never knew the God I know now). My Dad told me that the reason we went to church is because it "makes you feel good"...about yourself and about what you have been blessed with. He likely would have said that the other people in the world were either like us (though not quite as "good" because America had the most freedom) or oppressed by communism. He would claim that their governments limited what they could buy and how wealthy they could become. Thus, Dads idea of God was as a way to acquire more wealth and blessings so as to be able to give more to the church, the Masons, and the guy on the street that he might hire for a day to clean the floors in his houses that he built. Had ringo been around my family then, and tried to date my sister(who is now 70) Dad would have called him a beatnik and tried to protect her from him. God and America were synonymous. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lets start by defining logical. To some, a universe that began with nothing more than chemicals makes more sense than a Creator. To me, A Creator makes more sense. To some, humans invented god, gods, spaghetti monsters and religions. To me, I became born again when I became aware of the actual presence of God. One could ask for evidence and argue that I experienced something else, but to me, at that moment God became logical primarily because of my sense of awareness which started that day and has been with me ever since.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ICANT writes: This is ringos argument, not mine. I have absolutely no problem with a Universe that began due to the Will of a Creator. Hawking did and ringo does. The man seeks evidence for his very own intelligence. He *used* to be a believer and yet claims that he "outgrew" this childish conclusion. Phat what chemicals are you talking about? Whenever I start an argument by saying "some say that..." I am usually talking about our secular peanut gellery here at the Forum. They will even claim that I have no argument but only an assertion. They insist that we need evidence in order to have an argument...which I will agree with in a science forum argument but not so much in a Faith based argument. The soapbox critics here at EvC do not realize that "In The Berginning..Chemicals" is as much made up as any God hypothesis. Unless they are inferring the chemicals in their own minds! Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
That's the only thing in your post that you got right: same as you used to believe in Santa Claus and outgrew that childish conclusion. Creator of all seen and unseen is hardly on the same level as Santa Claus. You make the mistake of placing all myths on the same shelf. Ask yourself if it is logical for the shelf to have always existed. We know that it is illogical for humans to have always existed yet with our nifty little chemically formed minds we dare speculate, quantify and objectify everything around us except a Creator, which we quite naturally find illogical and unnecessary. Funny how we never conclude the same thing about our own minds.
Chemicals are not made up. Yet the idea that chemicals were the first thing around is illogical. If they were all packed tightly in a singularity, they obviously were not involved in the process that formed the singularity itself. No science experiment involves every chemical ever known randomly in the same space."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ICANT is simply describing how others view Dr.Hawkings work:
The Stephen Hawking Centre For Theoretical Cosmology Centre for Theoretical Cosmology writes: This stuff is way over all of our heads, but essentially ICANT is correct. Hawking did not believe in a Creator(just like Tangle!) and it certainly appears that the definition of instanton smoothed out the difficulties found in the maths. What amuses me about Tangle is that he bows his head to highly educated physicists when they dont know any more about what created the singularity than do you or I. We believe that it is essentially a Creator of all seen and unseen, which ringo arrogantly labels as fictional even though he has no basis in so doing. Except pride. Stephen Hawking and Neil Turok have proposed a bold solution to this problem. They constructed a class of instantons that give rise to open Universes in a similar way to the instantons of Coleman and De Luccia. However, they did not require the existence of a false vacuum or other very specific properties of the excited matter state. The price they pay for this is that their instantons have singularities: places where the curvature becomes infinite. Since singularities are usually regarded as places where the theory breaks down and must be replaced by a more fundamental theory, this is a quite controversial feature of their work. The question of course arises which of these instantons describes correctly the creation of our own Universe. The way one might hope to distinguish between different theories of quantum cosmology is by considering quantum fluctuations about these instantons. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics implies that vacuum fluctuations are present in every quantum theory. In the full quantum picture therefore, an instanton provides us just with a background geometry in the path integral with respect to which quantum fluctuations need to be considered. Tangle will angrily chide me for assuming I am anywhere near Dr.Hawkings league and manner of expertise, but even the late great Dr.Hawking had no way to construct a theory about a Creator of all seen and unseen. Many great philosophers have done so, and while they can prove nothing, I certainly recognize the concept as vastly different than a human created myth such as Santa Claus. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ICANT writes: I know! Im assuming that they will try and get around this by saying that at no point was there actually nothing...but always at a minimum a singularity. If there was an absence of existence there could be no place for chemicals to exist or anything else.Human wisdom needs maths to hang on to, but we never consider the fact that the only real pretender to a Creator of all seen and unseen is in fact human wisdom itself. ICANT writes: Granted their assumptions are based on some sort of objective proof within the math and physics themselves, but I dont fault science for never settling on the belief that God was the Creator since in their minds it provides an "easy" answer which puts them out of a job. All of their assertions are based upon assumptions. Tangle often accuses philosophers of making shit up. Note the following excerpt from the article I introduced:
One of the central problems in connecting fundamental theory with cosmology is how inflation emerges from within a higher-dimensional spacetime. There has been much recent progress in obtaining models within string theory, much of it pioneered in DAMTP, which include so-called 'brane inflation', 'large volume' scenarios and even more radical 'cyclic' models in which the Universe expands and recollapses perpetually. However, several open problems remain related to the stablilsation of the fields that describe the shapes and volumes of the extra dimensions, as well as difficulties with obtaining a long enough inflationary period to describe our Universe. There have been recent advances that suggest dynamical mechanisms which may fix these fields to values required by cosmological observations. However, many different scenarios exist, so we need to develop criteria for identifying a subset of cosmologically viable models out of this vast string theory landscape.. How is developing criteria for identifying any different than making stuff up? Math is a tool for understanding. Humans by nature do not understand why in regards to a lot of things. Now on to ringo:
Phat writes:
...Creator of all seen and unseen is hardly on the same level as Santa Claus.ringo writes: You have no basis for calling a Creator of all seen and unseen a fictional character. Except that perhaps He never talked to you to your satisfaction.
It's the EXACT same level: fictional character. Phat writes:
You make the mistake of placing all myths on the same shelf.ringo writes: There is nothing arbitrary about my choice. My choice is very specific, justified, and intentional. You are picking a fight with every great philosopher whom ever lived. Your precious evidence will never get you the answer that you truly want...it will only lead to more questions. You are, however fully responsible for your choice. I hope that it works out well for you.
You make the mistake of arbitrarily picking some fiction over other fiction. All myths ARE on the same shelf: the myth shelf.Neither logic nor shelves have anything to do with it. The jury is still out in regards to whether the concepts being discussed are in fact fictional. Time to reorganize our shelves.
Phat writes: Brains is what I mean.
We know that it is illogical for humans to have always existed yet with our nifty little chemically formed minds we dare speculate, quantify and objectify everything around us except a Creator...ringo writes: Chemicals would also be included in the singularity. A Creator of all seen and unseen would not reside there.
It isn't speculation. Chemicals ARE objective and quantifiable, a Creator is not.ringo writes: I will have to review that conversation, but it appears that you are arguing in support of what you label a fictional character. How interesting. Pay attention. I have been having a long conversation with Sarah Bellum in which I insist that a Creator is NOT illogical."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle, refrerring to Stephen Hawking writes: He was an atheist. Atheists do not believe in creators. No, he believed in science and in the ability of the human mind to figure out its own answers. How is this different from assuming that Humans are our own Creators in the sense that it is we who decide our destiny?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Because we become the decisions that we make. You claim that it is a harmful teaching to follow Christ. Look at this Bible Study and tell med where it gives bad advice:
What has creating our own destiny got to do with 'Creation'.quote: "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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