I Know That God Does Not Exist

Explain again the "scientific" explanation of how life came from non-life. Was it Dr.Frankenstein's lightning bolt?

You claim that everything that can be known about God and Jesus is confined to the book. I will claim that everything that can be known or guessed concerning the galaxy and the universe beyond...including the evidence of god or lack of...is confined to human wisdom coming solely from this dust speck called Earth. I would say that science also has quite a task describing this whole universe and leaving the idea of God as an uncaused first cause out of their equation.Why should the source be human derived? We were at one time non living chemicals!!Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Dont you see it? The human hubris at asserting a low probability of God? Based on our microcosmic position?Lets go back and reassess the reasoning.There is "likely No God or at any rate no Christian God because:

Behavior of Christians infers no special advantage

Evidence is lacking, according to some secular arguments. Apologists disagree, and have many arguments countering this, however.

​

This specific evidence against God first seeks to discredit the Bible itself. The jury is still out, as there are also many arguments supporting the Bible.

​

The fact that this "God" has never talked to everyone. I would argue that humans by nature are defiant towards the idea of an authority that is "alien". They want to cling to their precious free will at all costs, even if it is shown to them that they need higher wisdom to deal with their own flawed and selfish, greedy reality.

---

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

​

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

​

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile

I believe that God exists, first of all...wherever He wants to exist. When God gave us free will, He set it up to be a belief thing rather than an evidence thing for a specific reason---to make true free will possible. The reason you don't find God in the sun is because God created the sun. He is much bigger than the sun. Same with the weather. Heaven has no specific geographic location so there is no way to look there. And God only exists in a heart who wants Him there. I maintain that you don't find Him because you don't want Him. You simply made an argument absolving you of any emotional responsibility.

Jesus was God incarnate. Jesus did people things. Though many arguments have attempted to dismiss Him as a myth or discredit the sources who claim His existence, the argument is far from conclusive.

How is the idea of God so irrational to begin with? I think that ringos idea of eternally existing chemicals that become what we are today is more irrational...but some people prefer that hypothetical line of thought for one reason only---we can do the maths that support it. Which gets back to humans defining reality on strictly human terms...which is not entirely rational when imagining alternative possibilities.

I would suggest that rocket powered grenades are irrational.

Not everything in life, philosophy, or experience can be evidenced. This in and of itself shouldn't limit rationality. Given this corollary, every single believer is irrational and you are essentially dismissing any consideration of the concept of God based solely on physical evidence. Which you are allowed to do...yet I can dismiss such a conclusion as irrational to me based on my personal experience. You of course may be rational to many.

It also is not a means of eliminating belief from social consciousness and reality. I wish you eggheaded atheists would stop trying to frame a world view which we all must adapt that eliminates modern religion. I guess I cant blame you little pests for fighting back, however.

Apparently, my opponents have set the measurement of the goalposts in this discussion.Were this topic in Faith & Belief, I would have stronger ground to defend my world view through a good sermon, despite my opponents vilification of all apologetics as word salad! We are here, however, and the debate has to be framed that the "God" and subsequent "God Characters" are all inventions of the human mind and that the entire lot of them are contained "in the book"....namely the books known as the modern Bible. The ESV, the NKJV, and/or the KJV are the best known. (You can have the NIV! ) Nonetheless, for the purposes of this discussion, earlier Canons are irrelevant as are scribblings from various contemporary mythicists. It is only fair, as my opponents seek to discredit the apologists as well. Moreover upon examination I see no compelling evidence from any of these people.So we stick to the book.The first crazy argument, found online at an atheist website (surprise, surprise) is this:
How and Why Did a Snake Have the Ability to Talk? by Austin Cline, himself an interesting Bio:

quote:

---

Austin Cline, a former regional director for the Council for Secular Humanism, writes and lectures extensively about atheism and agnosticism.

​

Citation: Cline, Austin. "How and Why Did a Snake Have the Ability to Talk?" Learn Religions, Jun. 25, 2019, learnreligions.com/punishing-the-snake-for-telling-the-truth-247982

---

The article parrots almost exactly the same counter-dogma (I will call it) that ringo and jar regularly use in their arguments.The strength of their argument is that it is taken nearly verbatim from the scripture itself. Even though a room full of apologists would nearly universally disagree with the argument, it is a sound argument on the surface. A Science Forum is the only place such an argument would be left alone---and it appears from the posts by EvC Atheists Stile, Tangle, Theodoric, and ringo (jar is simply an old curmudgeon who insists he is a Christian simply because he belongs to an established club) that the basic scientific argument against Christian Apologetics and Biblical Christianity is that evidence and facts are the gold standard for any belief. Intuition, Internal Indwelling by the Holy Spirit, and an appeal to popularity among modern day believers all lack clout in such a science-based approach. All that I can really use is the book itself, since that is what was used to ground this scientific argument to redefine Biblical meaning.Give me a day or so to write my argument. ringo will no doubt claim that I still have but an assertion.

ringos basic problem is that he thinks he can figure out what truth is.

Sara is approaching this from a logic and science perspective. I approach it from a faith perspective, so my paradigm differs, yet I can see what Sara is saying. In other words, you are saying that truth is relative to the individual and that you can rationalize your own truth in any argument and that we should consider your rationale valid. It is not. There is One Truth. Period. Your attempts at making the argument relative to you fail. In Saras paradigm, Truth exists as a final answer. In my paradigm God exists as a final answer. In your warped paradigm, ringos rationale exists above all else and will post a reply to any question. You thrive on being your own god.

His rationale is to endlessly debate and provide a counter answer to any of our answers simply to avoid having to agree(submit) to our answer. Even if our answer is correct. No wonder he never listened to God nor believed that God existed.When I see him arguing the same way with you---of a scientific mind--i see the little imp at play in his mind.

I can imagine that both conclusions can be argued. Our very own jar confesses that he is a believer and that his belief is irrational. And to be honest, something without evidence is often irrational, though not always...as Stile suggests.My only "eveidence" is subjective feelings and strong impressions that I have had. Repeatedly. Objectively, evidence is rare if ever seen.Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

The following argument is well presented. You say you are objective and await evidence, but why is the testimony of others who have thought long and hard about such things disallowed as evidence? Consider:

quote:

---

Does God exist? Here are six straightforward reasons to believe that God is really there.

​

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

​

But first consider this. When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding his existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

​

1. The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

​

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

​

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

​

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

​

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

​

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

​

It has wide margin between its boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

​

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

​

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

​

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

​

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

​

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

​

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

​

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

​

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

---

I might point out that you seem not to want God to exist with "all your heart". In fact, you have said more than once that you would be perfectly happy without Him. I believe that in your lifetime that will change, but I have no evidence as to why your attitude will change. And I fully understand why many of you here at EvC are hesitant to even want to find this God ...this Jesus whom we preach. Some of that has to do with losing your free will, and much of it has to do with the loony characters that we are. Who would want to gleefully become irrational and insane?? But let us continue...

quote:

---

2. The universe had a start - what caused it?

​

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

​

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9

​

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10

​

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

---

Hawking claims the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. John Lennox disagrees. The jury is indeed out.

quote:

---

3. The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

​

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

​

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."11

​

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."12

---

Comments?

quote:

---

4. The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

​

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

​

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.13

​

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

​

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

​

5. We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

​

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

​

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

​

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

​

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me. {and finally...Jesus Himself. Gods human character.

​

6. Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

​

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."14 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."15

​

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.16

​

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although he views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and he came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

​

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."17 This is God, in action.

​

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."18

​

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ.

---

Overall a well presented reasoning from a former atheist.The difference being that most of the atheists here at EvC have no compelling reason to even seek knowledge apart from cold statistical evidence. I believe that this will change.The concept of Jesus Christ will either become loved or hated with a passion. There will one day be no indifference. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.