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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Why not? The vast majority of good that I do for people is through my taxes.
Also, we aren't talking about charity that is derived from government. GDR writes:
It isn't rocket science. Americans give more because they have more, not because they're more religious. ringo writes:
I'm not at all clear about what point you are trying to make here. If you measure goodness in terms of cash, the ones with the most cash will seem like the most good.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The phone book is data for some. You can either use it for its intended purpose or you can misuses it. And I would argue that the Bible is data for some.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, that's the point. Believers treat the Bible as if it had an intended purpose. They might just as well use the phone book to predict lottery numbers. Which then leads to the question (and/or presumption) that the Bible has a specific intended purpose.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I predict that you'll lose that argument but go ahead and make it. Or is it just another one of your assertions?
I would argue that human empathy (and action) go a lot further than mere tax dollars or spare change in the collection plate. Phat writes:
Exactly. I observe that Americans seem to prefer throwing money at problems rather than getting personally involved.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Lots of people believe in God but not in the Bible. You'd have to believe in a particular myth about God to believe that the Bible has one specific purpose. Perhaps if one does not believe that God exists then the Bible does not have an intended purpose. It would also be possible for an atheist to believe that the Bible has one specific purpose, though he would have no vested interest in it.
Phat writes:
Well, the evidence suggests that the Bible does not have a single purpose, so I don't see the parallel. Its like Stile *knowing* that God does not exist. He accepted the evidence and thus allows himself to know.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
But it isn't the same. He can make a negative claim based on lack of evidence. We do that for leprechauns and unicorns and a thousand other things. But you can not make a positive claim based on lack of evidence.
My claim the I know God exists is simply a way of saying that I "know" that God exists using the same definition and understanding of what it means to know something that Stile used. GDR writes:
I'm saying that we have evidence for natural processes. That's what you asked for.
Are you saying that because we can show that heat is necessary to boil water by a natural process that all natural processes are the result of mindless origins? GDR writes:
The evolutionary proceses are based on the emergent properties of matter, the same as the boiling process. No need for any voodoo.
How did this "network" bring about an evolutionary process out of the initial materials of the universe? GDR writes:
And? But we have scientific evidence that at one time within our universe which is subject to time and entropy there was no cellular life and in fact no planets at all.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
No, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a net result. Your claim was that religious people do more to help people than non-religious people. Even if it was possible to measure such a thing, you don't get to keep changing the rules to make your conclusion right.
Obviously what we are talking about is what we do with what we have left after taxes. We are also talking about what we do with or time. GDR writes:
That sounds suspiciously like the No True Christian defence: If a person's contribution doesn't measure up to your claim, he's no true Christian. It isn't about the amount but the comparison between those who as Christians are active in their churches and those with no religious affiliation.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
"Root causes" is a red herring. If you propose pre-existing intelligence as a root cause of processes, you still don't know the root cause of the root cause.
It is true that we only have objective knowledge of natural processes but that tells us nothing about the root cause of natural processes regardless of how many stages we want to back. GDR writes:
"We can not find any sign of God," is not a positive claim. It can be backed by lack of evidence.
Regardless of which option we choose we can be accused of making a positive claim on lack of evidence. GDR writes:
"Evidence for why" is another red herring. It gets you nowhere.
What is the evidence for the why these natural processes exist? GDR writes:
We have evidence that it could have happened that way. You claim that you have evidence that we got from there to here through mindless random processes without any intelligent involvement.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You can't separate good done through taxes from good done through other means. We all pay taxes to the same degree depending on income. The net difference is what we do with our after tax income.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Indeed it is. Maybe that's a clue that you shouldn't be on the path to Christ. ... it seems that evidence is required before you will believe anything. Not a bad survival trait, but a stumbling block on the path to Christ.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You probably don't want to go down the "few are chosen" road unless you're ready to admit that the many are going to roast in Hell. The Bible speaks of two distinct groups of people. The many and the few.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
What is the fundamental reason that God exists?
Existence is evidence. What is the fundamental reason that it exists? GDR writes:
For fuck's sake.... ...and that evidence is? Physics, chemistry, biology....All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
But that isn't true unless you artificially change the criteria to make it true. The point is that far more voluntary charity is done by those who regularly attend a church than those who don't as shown by secular studies.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That's from your perspective, not "ours". From my perspective, I "can exist" quite nicely without a God.
..from our perspective, so that we can exist. GDR writes:
Asked and answered: same reason why God exists.
Why do physics, chemistry and biology exist?GDR writes:
Intelligence is a product of physics, chemistry and biology. Why is it that we have the intelligence to study thos subjects?All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
As I've said, we need to consider everything that a person contributes, whether through voluntary charity or through taxation or through organized good-deed-doing or through just being a good citizen in general. OK then, what is the criteria you want me to use?All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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