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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1013 of 3207 (856955)
07-04-2019 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by GDR
07-04-2019 11:59 AM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
GDR writes:
Also, we aren't talking about charity that is derived from government.
Why not? The vast majority of good that I do for people is through my taxes.
GDR writes:
ringo writes:
If you measure goodness in terms of cash, the ones with the most cash will seem like the most good.
I'm not at all clear about what point you are trying to make here.
It isn't rocket science. Americans give more because they have more, not because they're more religious.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by GDR, posted 07-04-2019 11:59 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1018 by Phat, posted 07-04-2019 12:17 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1033 by GDR, posted 07-04-2019 2:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1014 of 3207 (856957)
07-04-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1012 by Phat
07-04-2019 12:04 PM


Re: chances
Phat writes:
And I would argue that the Bible is data for some.
The phone book is data for some. You can either use it for its intended purpose or you can misuses it.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1012 by Phat, posted 07-04-2019 12:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1017 by Phat, posted 07-04-2019 12:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1019 of 3207 (856965)
07-04-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1017 by Phat
07-04-2019 12:14 PM


Re: chances
Phat writes:
Which then leads to the question (and/or presumption) that the Bible has a specific intended purpose.
Well, that's the point. Believers treat the Bible as if it had an intended purpose. They might just as well use the phone book to predict lottery numbers.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1017 by Phat, posted 07-04-2019 12:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1021 by Phat, posted 07-04-2019 1:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1020 of 3207 (856966)
07-04-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1018 by Phat
07-04-2019 12:17 PM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
Phat writes:
I would argue that human empathy (and action) go a lot further than mere tax dollars or spare change in the collection plate.
I predict that you'll lose that argument but go ahead and make it. Or is it just another one of your assertions?
Phat writes:
I observe that Americans seem to prefer throwing money at problems rather than getting personally involved.
Exactly.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1018 by Phat, posted 07-04-2019 12:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1022 of 3207 (856977)
07-04-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1021 by Phat
07-04-2019 1:02 PM


Re: chances
Phat writes:
Perhaps if one does not believe that God exists then the Bible does not have an intended purpose.
Lots of people believe in God but not in the Bible. You'd have to believe in a particular myth about God to believe that the Bible has one specific purpose.
It would also be possible for an atheist to believe that the Bible has one specific purpose, though he would have no vested interest in it.
Phat writes:
Its like Stile *knowing* that God does not exist. He accepted the evidence and thus allows himself to know.
Well, the evidence suggests that the Bible does not have a single purpose, so I don't see the parallel.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1021 by Phat, posted 07-04-2019 1:02 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1040 of 3207 (857006)
07-04-2019 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1032 by GDR
07-04-2019 2:28 PM


Re: chances
GDR writes:
My claim the I know God exists is simply a way of saying that I "know" that God exists using the same definition and understanding of what it means to know something that Stile used.
But it isn't the same. He can make a negative claim based on lack of evidence. We do that for leprechauns and unicorns and a thousand other things. But you can not make a positive claim based on lack of evidence.
GDR writes:
Are you saying that because we can show that heat is necessary to boil water by a natural process that all natural processes are the result of mindless origins?
I'm saying that we have evidence for natural processes. That's what you asked for.
GDR writes:
How did this "network" bring about an evolutionary process out of the initial materials of the universe?
The evolutionary proceses are based on the emergent properties of matter, the same as the boiling process. No need for any voodoo.
GDR writes:
But we have scientific evidence that at one time within our universe which is subject to time and entropy there was no cellular life and in fact no planets at all.
And?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1032 by GDR, posted 07-04-2019 2:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by GDR, posted 07-04-2019 7:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1042 of 3207 (857008)
07-04-2019 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1033 by GDR
07-04-2019 2:34 PM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
GDR writes:
Obviously what we are talking about is what we do with what we have left after taxes. We are also talking about what we do with or time.
No, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a net result. Your claim was that religious people do more to help people than non-religious people. Even if it was possible to measure such a thing, you don't get to keep changing the rules to make your conclusion right.
GDR writes:
It isn't about the amount but the comparison between those who as Christians are active in their churches and those with no religious affiliation.
That sounds suspiciously like the No True Christian defence: If a person's contribution doesn't measure up to your claim, he's no true Christian.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by GDR, posted 07-04-2019 2:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1045 by GDR, posted 07-04-2019 7:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1073 of 3207 (857091)
07-05-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1044 by GDR
07-04-2019 7:10 PM


Re: chances
GDR writes:
It is true that we only have objective knowledge of natural processes but that tells us nothing about the root cause of natural processes regardless of how many stages we want to back.
"Root causes" is a red herring. If you propose pre-existing intelligence as a root cause of processes, you still don't know the root cause of the root cause.
GDR writes:
Regardless of which option we choose we can be accused of making a positive claim on lack of evidence.
"We can not find any sign of God," is not a positive claim. It can be backed by lack of evidence.
GDR writes:
What is the evidence for the why these natural processes exist?
"Evidence for why" is another red herring. It gets you nowhere.
GDR writes:
You claim that you have evidence that we got from there to here through mindless random processes without any intelligent involvement.
We have evidence that it could have happened that way.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1044 by GDR, posted 07-04-2019 7:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1081 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1074 of 3207 (857092)
07-05-2019 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by GDR
07-04-2019 7:21 PM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
GDR writes:
We all pay taxes to the same degree depending on income. The net difference is what we do with our after tax income.
You can't separate good done through taxes from good done through other means.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by GDR, posted 07-04-2019 7:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1082 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1075 of 3207 (857093)
07-05-2019 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1057 by Phat
07-05-2019 2:52 AM


Re: AZ GDR and ringo.
Phat writes:
... it seems that evidence is required before you will believe anything. Not a bad survival trait, but a stumbling block on the path to Christ.
Indeed it is. Maybe that's a clue that you shouldn't be on the path to Christ.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by Phat, posted 07-05-2019 2:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1076 of 3207 (857094)
07-05-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1064 by Phat
07-05-2019 6:35 AM


Re: AZ GDR and ringo.
Phat writes:
The Bible speaks of two distinct groups of people. The many and the few.
You probably don't want to go down the "few are chosen" road unless you're ready to admit that the many are going to roast in Hell.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by Phat, posted 07-05-2019 6:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1084 of 3207 (857108)
07-05-2019 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1081 by GDR
07-05-2019 4:07 PM


Re: chances
GDR writes:
Existence is evidence. What is the fundamental reason that it exists?
What is the fundamental reason that God exists?
GDR writes:
...and that evidence is?
For fuck's sake....
Physics, chemistry, biology....

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1081 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1088 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1085 of 3207 (857109)
07-05-2019 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1082 by GDR
07-05-2019 4:10 PM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
GDR writes:
The point is that far more voluntary charity is done by those who regularly attend a church than those who don't as shown by secular studies.
But that isn't true unless you artificially change the criteria to make it true.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1082 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1089 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1090 of 3207 (857114)
07-05-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1088 by GDR
07-05-2019 4:36 PM


Re: chances
GDR writes:
..from our perspective, so that we can exist.
That's from your perspective, not "ours". From my perspective, I "can exist" quite nicely without a God.
GDR writes:
Why do physics, chemistry and biology exist?
Asked and answered: same reason why God exists.
GDR writes:
Why is it that we have the intelligence to study thos subjects?
Intelligence is a product of physics, chemistry and biology.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1088 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1094 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1091 of 3207 (857115)
07-05-2019 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1089 by GDR
07-05-2019 4:37 PM


Re: In Defense Of The Book
GDR writes:
OK then, what is the criteria you want me to use?
As I've said, we need to consider everything that a person contributes, whether through voluntary charity or through taxation or through organized good-deed-doing or through just being a good citizen in general.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1089 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1093 by GDR, posted 07-05-2019 4:54 PM ringo has replied

  
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