Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8915 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-17-2019 9:18 AM
32 online now:
caffeine, dwise1, edge, Percy (Admin), Stile, Theodoric (6 members, 26 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Happy Birthday: lopezeast0211
Post Volume:
Total: 856,854 Year: 11,890/19,786 Month: 1,671/2,641 Week: 180/708 Day: 7/40 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
160161162
163
164165Next
Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News (formerly In the News)
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 2431 of 2475 (857718)
07-10-2019 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2428 by Hyroglyphx
07-10-2019 4:42 PM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
Scandals are not grounds for prison. Scandals are not necessarily based on evidence. What do they deserve to go to jail for? I'd love to see your evidence. I am sure federal prosecutors would too. Go ahead present it. Looks like you have Clinton derangement syndrome.
You will find progressives did not defend him during the Lewinsky scandal. Go ahead gives us names of individuals and organizations that openly defended him from perjury. He was impeached but not found guilty by the Senate.

As for the DNC, they are not the progressive or liberal movement. One of the best things us progressives have going for us us that right wing stooges. ike you attack people that do t represent us or our movement at all.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2428 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-10-2019 4:42 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2434 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-10-2019 9:53 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5718
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 2432 of 2475 (857735)
07-10-2019 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2427 by jar
07-10-2019 4:38 PM


Re: Anglagard's wonderfully fair and peaceable reaching out to evangelicals
Please provide the evidence that the #METOO movement says you should simply just believe the accusation and if you don't, well, then you're just a sexist pig.

Lets not play coy that the mantra "Believe Survivors" didn't dominate headlines.

quote:
The phrase “believe women” has been in use since before the #MeToo movement entered its most public phase in October 2017. It’s been used in feminist circles since at least February 2017. “Believe women” became more common as #MeToo gained attention. “As America’s very public reckoning with sexual harassment and assault continues, the conversation around ‘believe women’ and #MeToo, inevitably, also becomes more complicated and fractured,” Gillian B. White wrote for the Atlantic in November 2017.

Both “believe women” and “believe survivors” became even more visible during the confirmation hearings for Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh, who was accused of sexual assault by Christine Blasey Ford. In September 2018, Washington Post columnist Monica Hesse called the Kavanaugh confirmation process “a test of what it looks like to believe women.... #MeToo founder Tarana Burke, along with Planned Parenthood, the National Center for Transgender Equality, and other progressive groups, participated in a nationwide protest called the #BelieveSurvivors walkout. Participants were encouraged to post photos or video of themselves with the hashtag #BelieveSurvivors, according to the Cut.

For many, calling for Americans to “believe women” and “believe survivors” is a way to push back against a culture in which people who report sexual misconduct — especially if they are women — have often been disbelieved. Many who came forward as part of the #MeToo movement told stories not only of the trauma of being assaulted or harassed, but of the pain of having their experiences discounted afterward."


Source


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2427 by jar, posted 07-10-2019 4:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2441 by jar, posted 07-11-2019 7:51 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 2444 by JonF, posted 07-11-2019 9:30 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 2455 by anglagard, posted 07-11-2019 1:47 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5718
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 2433 of 2475 (857737)
07-10-2019 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2430 by JonF
07-10-2019 5:13 PM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
But the aggravated perjury intrigues me. Google shows nothing. What is the charge and what evidence do you have for it?

Aggravated Perjury is knowingly providing a false statement under oath during an official proceeding.

Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information

(3)  concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both..... unless you're a Clinton....

The term “classified information” means information which, at the time of a violation of this section, is, for reasons of national security, specifically designated by a United States Government Agency for limited or restricted dissemination or distribution

----------- Boldened are the violations --------------

Notice the first phrase? Oh, did you notice that information classified after she had it doesn't count?

What does that even mean?

(The server wasn't open. It was supplied by a commercial service.

Yeah, meaning susceptible to intrusion. Hilary Clinton was the SECRETARY OF STATE for the entire United States government -- literally the head honcho in charge of the entire intelligence services and armed forces apparatus.... do you really expect anyone to believe she was not brutally aware, not only how stupid it is to have classified material using AT&T servers, but also that it constitutes a serious breach of national security???

There's no evidence the server was ever hacked.)

How do you think we found out about it?!?! Are you serious?!?! Uh, maybe it came through by Wikileaks, perhaps. Does that sound familiar?

So, as you see, if you're Julian Assange, not an American citizen, and you host a website that embarrasses government officials, its punishable by life in a dark, dank prison. If you are Hilary Clinton, you just sign another book deal. If ANYBODY else did that, they'd be in prison and wiretapped for the rest of their lives upon their eventual release.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2430 by JonF, posted 07-10-2019 5:13 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2436 by Theodoric, posted 07-10-2019 10:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 2445 by JonF, posted 07-11-2019 9:57 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 2468 by JonF, posted 07-13-2019 10:37 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5718
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 2434 of 2475 (857738)
07-10-2019 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2431 by Theodoric
07-10-2019 6:15 PM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
Go ahead gives us names of individuals and organizations that openly defended him from perjury.

ZERO is the amount of Democrats who found him guilty.... ZERO.... as in, not a single one, which is spectacularly hilarious given he 100% lied under oath and 100% later admitted to the lie (perjury).

Here's every name that defended him when it mattered....

This was a slam dunk... but the powers that be made sure Slick Willy will never face anything for it.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2431 by Theodoric, posted 07-10-2019 6:15 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2435 by Theodoric, posted 07-10-2019 10:55 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 2437 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2019 11:31 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 2435 of 2475 (857745)
07-10-2019 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2434 by Hyroglyphx
07-10-2019 9:53 PM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
The Democratic Senators that did not vote to convict were not for the most part liberals and progressives. They have nothing to do with the current progressive movement. The Democratic Party of today is not responsible for how people acted 20 years ago.
Here is your original comment.
But if liberal ideology is going to stand up to scrutiny, where it pushes movements like MeToo (carte blanche believe accusers without an investigatory process, and the insinuation that to launch an investigation is part and parcel a sexist agenda) then it has to also deal with the fact that Bill Clinton, a liberal figurehead, is therefore necessarily guilty of every single allegation on that account alone by their own retarded system of beliefs.

You have not provided anything to back this statement. 20 years ago the Democratic Party supported Bill Clinton. That in no way means that the liberal and progressive movement of today support him or would support him. I suppose you think that the GOP is the party of civil rights because of Lincoln too.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2434 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-10-2019 9:53 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2438 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-11-2019 12:17 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 2436 of 2475 (857746)
07-10-2019 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2433 by Hyroglyphx
07-10-2019 9:39 PM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
You still have not shown how Hillary Clinton was guilty of breaking the law.
You have not addressed a lot of the things that have been brought up.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2433 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-10-2019 9:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 2437 of 2475 (857747)
07-10-2019 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2434 by Hyroglyphx
07-10-2019 9:53 PM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
Typical rightist demagoguery.

You twist what #Metoo was all about.

For ever, literally, women who have been raped/abused who complain have become the victims of character assassination while their complaints were ignored. They were ignored by the dominant male culture, the power structure in society as well as in law, that think women are sex toys to be used.

#Metoo is not about guilt until proven innocent. It is about giving credence to the complaint and providing the same evidenced-based inquest we afford any other criminal complaint.

Look at those rich and powerful accused. Until #Metoo they were able to avoid any problem since they needn't provide any defense whatsoever. With #Metoo we learn they could not provide any defense for their crime(s) and their entire facade of male superiority vanished along with their brash egotistical personalities.

Why does the alt-Reich complain so bitterly about seeking justice? Maybe because it is staffed by misogynists?

While I'm here.

What's with all this Clinton bashing? I know the alt-Reich needs a boogyman to hate but, in case you folks haven't been informed, Billary (neither of them) are a threat to you any more. They are not running for office.

Frankly, she would have been a much better choice than the dysfunctional cloddish dolt presently in the White House. Even Bill would have been a better vote and he can't even run.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2434 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-10-2019 9:53 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2439 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-11-2019 2:00 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5718
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 2438 of 2475 (857749)
07-11-2019 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2435 by Theodoric
07-10-2019 10:55 PM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
The Democratic Senators that did not vote to convict were not for the most part liberals and progressives. They have nothing to do with the current progressive movement. The Democratic Party of today is not responsible for how people acted 20 years ago.

You ask me to defend very specific statements, which I do, then you shift the goalposts when it becomes an inconvenience for you. You asked to show you Democrats who defended Clinton's perjury. I've now overwhelmingly demonstrated it. So now your new tactic is that those Democrats don't reflect today's Democrats.

Ahhh, right.... Not only is it irrelevant to your request, but what is the basis for your measurements?

You have not provided anything to back this statement. 20 years ago the Democratic Party supported Bill Clinton. That in no way means that the liberal and progressive movement of today support him or would support him. I suppose you think that the GOP is the party of civil rights because of Lincoln too.

The Republican Party has shifted from stuffy Christian Coalition types to bourgeois Wall Street types. Yeah, sure, some changes to both parties. But as I recall the entire DNC did a hack job specifically to get a Clinton elected when they had Bernie. So I guess those 20-year-ago Democrats didn't completely fade away, aye? And what exactly is your point anyhow?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2435 by Theodoric, posted 07-10-2019 10:55 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2442 by Theodoric, posted 07-11-2019 7:59 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5718
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 2439 of 2475 (857751)
07-11-2019 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2437 by AZPaul3
07-10-2019 11:31 PM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
For ever, literally, women who have been raped/abused who complain have become the victims of character assassination while their complaints were ignored. They were ignored by the dominant male culture, the power structure in society as well as in law, that think women are sex toys to be used.

I know what MeToo is all about. And the basic premise is fine; great even. But just like all these movements, they morph into more extreme versions of themselves and begin to take on another meaning. Its the same thing with feminism. Obviously virtually all women want equal rights for women, and yet about half would characterize themselves as "feminists." Why do you suppose this is? Because feminism has largely morphed into something beyond its original meaning. Same thing with MeToo.

#Metoo is not about guilt until proven innocent. It is about giving credence to the complaint and providing the same evidenced-based inquest we afford any other criminal complaint.

No, it really hasn't. In 2017 it was an Olympic event to label people as rapists and to convict them in the court of public opinion which only served to damage legitimate harassment and rape claims. I will always give credit where credit is due. There are certainly real life scumbags like Bill Cosby or Harvey Shitstain but there were a lot of really petty nonsense going on simultaneously.

Look at those rich and powerful accused. Until #Metoo they were able to avoid any problem since they needn't provide any defense whatsoever. With #Metoo we learn they could not provide any defense for their crime(s) and their entire facade of male superiority vanished along with their brash egotistical personalities.

Besides obvious ones like Cosby or Weinstein, who are you referring to?

Why does the alt-Reich complain so bitterly about seeking justice? Maybe because it is staffed by misogynists?

I don't know. I'm not Alt-Right, Alt-Reich, or a part of any other organization. I hate ANTIFA, Alt-Right thugs, or pretty much any other fly by night "group." Run it by them, not me.

What's with all this Clinton bashing?

Because he was the mother of all Metoo outrages, damn near the poster child for it, and yet there was a curious silence when Hilary was running for office. She had the balls to make a big deal about "Grab her by the pussy" as if locker room talk was soooo scandalous. Meanwhile her own husband was literally sexually assaulting people for decades Not to mention his affiliations with Epstein; having taken numerous flights to rape island on the Lolita Express. Where was the moral outrage? Silence.

Frankly, she would have been a much better choice than the dysfunctional cloddish dolt presently in the White House. Even Bill would have been a better vote and he can't even run.

Choosing between those two was like trying to choose between Gonorrhea and Syphilis. What a disaster -- almost like a dark comedy -- too unreal to believe.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2437 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2019 11:31 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 2440 by Faith, posted 07-11-2019 6:22 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 2440 of 2475 (857757)
07-11-2019 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 2439 by Hyroglyphx
07-11-2019 2:00 AM


Re: Bill is no ******* figurehead
I agree that we can't just assume all the accusations are trustworthy in the absence of serious investigation into them. There really are women who are out to get men even if most stories of abuse are probably true. But there's no way to know if they're true just from an accusation, and especially when they are coming out in a political context.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2439 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-11-2019 2:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31062
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2441 of 2475 (857760)
07-11-2019 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2432 by Hyroglyphx
07-10-2019 9:18 PM


Re: Anglagard's wonderfully fair and peaceable reaching out to evangelicals
That a phrase has been used is NOT evidence that the #METOO movement claimed believers should simply be believed beyond saying that like ANY claim it should be taken seriously. In the US even #METOO supports deciding guilt though the legal process.

Claiming more than that is simply silly.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios � � My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2432 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-10-2019 9:18 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2443 by Theodoric, posted 07-11-2019 8:04 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 2442 of 2475 (857761)
07-11-2019 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2438 by Hyroglyphx
07-11-2019 12:17 AM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
Read the subtitle. Liberal and Progressive do not mean Democratic and vice versa. That is my point. Go ahead attack the Clinton's. Claim they should be arrested without any evidence. Actual liberals and progressives will support them as much as anyone else accused without evidence. No more. No less. It is really funny having a right winger telling me, a left progressive, what the progressive sacred cows and beliefs are. Dont mind if I dont take your right wing, misogynistic, racist, unpatriotic arguments seriously.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2438 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-11-2019 12:17 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 2443 of 2475 (857764)
07-11-2019 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 2441 by jar
07-11-2019 7:51 AM


Re: Anglagard's wonderfully fair and peaceable reaching out to evangelicals
Silly and misogynistic. I am sure he believes that Black Lives Matter is anti- American too.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2441 by jar, posted 07-11-2019 7:51 AM jar has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 5010
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 2444 of 2475 (857768)
07-11-2019 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2432 by Hyroglyphx
07-10-2019 9:18 PM


Re: Anglagard's wonderfully fair and peaceable reaching out to evangelicals
So, not just believe the accusation and nothing about anyone being a sexist pig. Got it.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2432 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-10-2019 9:18 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5010
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 2445 of 2475 (857773)
07-11-2019 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 2433 by Hyroglyphx
07-10-2019 9:39 PM


Re: Bill is no liberal figurehead
I know what aggravated perjury is. Who do you think committed it and what's your evidence for it?

You bolded the portions of the law that you think were violated. That's not evidence of violations. I specifically asked for evidence.

Notice the first phrase? Oh, did you notice that information classified after she had it doesn't count?

What does that even mean?

Reading comprehension issues?

"Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates,..." means that mishandling classified material is a crime if and only if the perpetrator KNOWS he or she is mishandling classified information and explicitly DECIDES to mishandle classified information (e.g. see Petraeus). I'll be glad to discuss why it's virtually certain that Hillary did not know she was mishandling classified information. Feel free to present any evidence that she knew she was mishandling classified information and decided to do so.

"The term “classified information” means information which, at the time of a violation of this section, is, for reasons of national security, specifically designated by a United States Government Agency for limited or restricted dissemination or distribution;" means that whatever you do to material that is not classified when you do it but someone classifies later is not a crime. Many of the "classified" documents on the server were not classified at the time.

(The server wasn't open. It was supplied by a commercial service.

Yeah, meaning susceptible to intrusion

I see you didn't quote the part where I pointed out why such servers are not susceptible to intrusion and there's no evidence of intrusion.

I see you don't know much about our government. The Secretary of State is not "the head honcho in charge of the entire intelligence services and armed forces apparatus". The Pentagon, CIA, NSA, FBI, DIA and some other agencies beg to differ with you. The State Department does have a "Bureau of Intelligence and Research" which is "strictly analytical and does not engage in counterintelligence or espionage."

What anyone believes about Hillary's state of mind is irrelevant. What evidence you have is relevant. Haven't seen any yet. Not surprised.

There's no evidence the server was ever hacked.)

How do you think we found out about it?!?

The DNC was hacked. There's no evidence Hillary's server was hacked.

quote:
Emails sent to Clinton's private clintonemail.com address were first discovered in March 2013, when a hacker named "Guccifer" widely distributed emails sent to Clinton from Sidney Blumenthal, which Guccifer obtained by illegally accessing Blumenthal's email account.[32][33][34] The emails dealt with the 2012 Benghazi attack and other issues in Libya and revealed the existence of her clintonemail.com address.
{Wikipedia}

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2433 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-10-2019 9:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2447 by Theodoric, posted 07-11-2019 10:31 AM JonF has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
160161162
163
164165Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019