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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 346 of 1444 (770106)
09-29-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Phat
09-29-2015 2:09 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat writes:
I tend to believe that of one actually lost their faith they never had it to begin with.
Of course you do, but you're wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 2:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 3:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 347 of 1444 (770109)
09-29-2015 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
09-29-2015 10:38 AM


Re: Flickering Christians?
Phat, you'll recall that back in Message 339, I didn't make an atheistic argument against Christianity or the Christian experience.
Rather, I proposed that people don't stop being Christians when they sin, or even when they deeply question their faith; the notion that born again Christians are perfected in their faith and cannot fall away, that sinning again after salvation, or even losing one's faith entirely, doesn't mean they are no longer Christians.
My comments were in the context of the "no true Christian" fallacy, often invoked by Christians defending the conduct of other Christians in debates about the impact of Christianity on the world, for good or ill.
Phat writes:
Christians who have actually had a time when they felt that they met Jesus would never really walk away from the faith no matter how difficult the times must be.
Both the Bible and Luther, among others, disagree with you. If you have any trouble finding support for Luther saying one could fall from grace, let me know. I'll just treat with the Bible here.
Peter, for example, denied Christ three times, and fled Caiaphas' courtyard while the guards beat and mocked Christ--yet it was Peter who entered the empty tomb and who preached on the Day of the Pentecost.
Did he stop being a Christian anywhere in there?
I don't want you to give up your faith. I just want you to stop using fallacious--and counter-biblical--defenses of it. They hurt my brain.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 348 of 1444 (773207)
11-26-2015 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Tangle
09-29-2015 3:02 PM


My Friend Flicka
Phat writes:
I tend to believe that of one actually lost their faith they never had it to begin with.
Tangle writes:
Of course you do, but you're wrong.
Oh? Explain to me the time you once had faith---and what it was that you had it in?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2015 3:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2015 3:54 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 349 of 1444 (773210)
11-26-2015 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Phat
11-26-2015 3:09 PM


Re: My Friend Flicka
Phat writes:
Oh? Explain to me the time you once had faith---and what it was that you had it in?
I had faith until I was about 14. Swallowed the thing whole, believed every word. Gradually over a year or so it became blindingly obvious that it was just another made up thing of grow-ups, like Father Christmas.
If you think about it for just a minute, Europe was a Christian country, the vast majority of atheists will have been born into Christian families and brought up as Christian. They had a faith and lost it.
These days it's a little different, there are a large number of atheists bringing up children without being hamstrung by superstition so they didn't have a faith to lose.
And, btw, 'losing' is a believers concept - there's nothing to be lost.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 3:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 5:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 350 of 1444 (773213)
11-26-2015 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Tangle
11-26-2015 3:54 PM


Re: My Friend Flicka
'losing' is a believers concept - there's nothing to be lost.
Which means--to me at least--that if you never had faith in anything or anyone other than an idea which you claim is and was made up by others..(nevermind) OK...got it.
The idea that there is nothing to be lost is your opinion and belief. Evidence is not simply external and easily replicable. In some cases evidence is internal.
For some of us, there is a person in whom we believe and in whom we claim to know.
It is to us more than simply an idea---nor a made up one.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2015 3:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by AZPaul3, posted 11-26-2015 5:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 352 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 3:51 AM Phat has replied
 Message 353 by ringo, posted 11-27-2015 11:16 AM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 351 of 1444 (773217)
11-26-2015 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
11-26-2015 5:08 PM


Re: My Friend Flicka
For some of us, there is a person in whom we believe and in whom we claim to know.
It's called indoctrination. If it is done early enough and often enough it becomes so ingrained in the mind that reality can no longer have any effect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 5:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 352 of 1444 (773238)
11-27-2015 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
11-26-2015 5:08 PM


Re: My Friend Flicka
Phat writes:
In some cases evidence is internal.
That's not evidence for anything except personal delusion. It's purely subjective. Your beliefs can be 'seen' using magnetic resonace imaging of your brain - that's evidence of your belief. It's absolutely no evidence that what you believe is true.
It is to us more than simply an idea---nor a made up one.
I don't doubt it. I thought exactly the same about Father Christmas as I did about Jesus - both were very real. I spoke to Jesus and I left a wish list and a carrot out for Father Christmas. Unlike Jesus though there was actual evidence of Father Christmas. I asked him for a train set and he gave me one. Rudolf eat the carrot and FC left sooty footprints. When I asked Jesus to cure the deformed legs of my friend with polio, nothing happenened.
Then I grew up.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 5:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 11-27-2015 11:29 AM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 353 of 1444 (773250)
11-27-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
11-26-2015 5:08 PM


Re: My Friend Flicka
Phat writes:
In some cases evidence is internal.
No it isn't. You don't get to change the meaning of words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 11-26-2015 5:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Phat, posted 11-27-2015 11:36 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 354 of 1444 (773251)
11-27-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by Tangle
11-27-2015 3:51 AM


Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave...
Your beliefs can be 'seen' using magnetic resonance imaging of your brain(...)
Disciple of Sam Harris, are you? The Time Magazine article *is* interesting, however. I'll give you that. To wit:
Harris says there is no critique of faith hidden somewhere in his brief paper. But his next neurological enterprise may be another matter. He is planning an fMRI run that will concentrate specifically on religious faith, which Harris thinks he now knows how to plumb more deeply. He also plans to set up two different subject groups the faithful and non-believers. "That way," among other things, he says, "you can ask, 'Do believers believe that Jesus was born of a virgin the same way that nonbelievers believe that Chevrolet makes cars and trucks?'" It may turn out that the brain treats religious faith as its own special category of belief unlike ethics and math.
I still say its too early to draw any conclusions regarding what is and is not absolute truth....but I'll take into consideration this new knowledge that we humans on our dust speck are amassing---regarding what we know versus what we make up.
I maintain that "growing up" does not eliminate the need for spirituality--nor does it imply that belief in Jesus Christ--alive eternally and in communion eternally with humanity---is a bad and destructive mindset.
In Line with this topic, you may urge readers to utilize free will and gain knowledge while discarding superstition. In your mind, all religious beliefs are superstitious.
As far as Omniscience goes, you may argue that there is nothing nor anyone to whom we could attribute such a trait.
I, on the other hand, would embrace waking up each day and surrendering my problems to something and someone in whom I believe. This does not stop me from using critical thinking, discrimination of ideas, or free will regarding less important matters such as which pair of socks to wear.
Lets say I read either my Bible or a similar themed text every day. Today, as an example, I pick up a devotional called The Word For You Today and read the following entry:
quote:
Always Keep a Good Attitude
Friday, 27 November 2015---
"Meditate on these things...and the God of peace will be with you." Philippians 4:8-9 NKJV
When you're going through bad times, your goal should be to keep a good attitude. And with God's help you can. Dr. Viktor Frankl, a Nazi Holocaust camp survivor, said, "If a prisoner felt that he could no longer endure the realities of camp life, he found a way out in his mental life-an invaluable opportunity to dwell in the spiritual domain, the one that the [SS] was unable to destroy. Spiritual life strengthened the prisoner, helped him to adapt, and thereby improved his chances of survival." Here is some practical advice on keeping a good attitude in bad times: (1) Always believe the best about others, but don't get bent out of shape when they disappoint you. Nobody is perfect, including you. Just be grateful for the people that bring joy, and endeavour to be counted among them. (2) When you are tempted to retaliate, judge, or become impatient, say to yourself, "This is an opportunity for me to model a great attitude for the glory of God." You say, "But this person is driving me crazy." Then refuse to be a "passenger" and go along with them. Take back the wheel, get into the driver's seat of your life, and determine which direction you'll go and what attitude you'll have. The Bible says "Whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy-meditate on these things...and the God of peace will be with you."
Gen 17-19, John 12:37-50, Ps 118:19-29, Prov 31:14-17
Would you argue that this start of my day is turning my worldview to mush?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 3:51 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2015 12:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 355 of 1444 (773252)
11-27-2015 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by ringo
11-27-2015 11:16 AM


Re: My Friend Flicka
Ringo writes:
You don't get to change the meaning of words.
Well who gets to define them then? I always liked the quote from Louis Carroll...
quote:
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'
I suppose science will scan my brain and find it empty..

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by ringo, posted 11-27-2015 11:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by ringo, posted 11-27-2015 11:53 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 356 of 1444 (773253)
11-27-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Phat
11-27-2015 11:36 AM


Re: My Friend Flicka
Phat writes:
Well who gets to define them then?
Communication requires a sender, a receiver and a channel. The sender and receiver have to use the same meanings of words for communication to occur. If I say, "I ate corn flakes for breakfast," and you interpret that as, "I ate live kittens for breakfast," then we have failed to communicate.
You can NOT use the word "evidence" for any damn thing you please. If it isn't evidence, don't call it evidence. It's that simple.
What is it with you believers, anyway? Is your faith so weak that you have to prop it up by pretending you have evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Phat, posted 11-27-2015 11:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 11-27-2015 12:04 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 357 of 1444 (773254)
11-27-2015 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by ringo
11-27-2015 11:53 AM


Evidence Schmevidence
ringo writes:
You can NOT use the word "evidence" for any damn thing you please. If it isn't evidence, don't call it evidence. It's that simple.
What is it with you believers, anyway? Is your faith so weak that you have to prop it up by pretending you have evidence?
I base the definition on personal experience. "Seeing Is Believing" is to me, evidence. And for the record---NO---I do not need evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by ringo, posted 11-27-2015 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by ringo, posted 11-27-2015 12:17 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 358 of 1444 (773255)
11-27-2015 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Phat
11-27-2015 11:29 AM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave...
Phat writes:
I maintain that "growing up" does not eliminate the need for spirituality
What is this 'need' for spirituality? I don't have one and I don't even know what it means.
nor does it imply that belief in Jesus Christ--alive eternally and in communion eternally with humanity---is a bad and destructive mindset.
It's not necessarily bad - so long as by 'bad' you mean harmful. I don't think it's more harmful than believing in Father Christmas. It's just childish - which can be a problem if it continues into adulthood. Though most everyday believers seem to function ok. If it gets literal and becomes dogmatic it does start getting dangerous.
In Line with this topic, you may urge readers to utilize free will and gain knowledge while discarding superstition.
There ain't no such thing as free will. We've been over this. It just another daft religious construct. If you want to use it in my hearing, replace it with 'rational choice' - though this too is bounded.
In your mind, all religious beliefs are superstitious.
Of course. I assume you think the same of, I dunno, ancestor worship.
As for Lewis Carol, his writings are regarded as one of the best examples of nonsense literature.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 11-27-2015 11:29 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 359 of 1444 (773256)
11-27-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Phat
11-27-2015 12:04 PM


Re: Evidence Schmevidence
Phat writes:
I base the definition on personal experience.
You can't do that. You do not get to have your own personal language - not if you want to communicate.
Phat writes:
And for the record---NO---I do not need evidence.
Then stop using the word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 11-27-2015 12:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 11-29-2015 4:08 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 360 of 1444 (773323)
11-29-2015 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by ringo
11-27-2015 12:17 PM


Re: Evidence Schmevidence
I suppose this chalks up a point for the "Christianity is all about what we DO" crowd. and i suppose that what we *DO* is all of the evidence possible as to what Spirit is within us.
It sounds like a rewrite of the Good Samaritan....hungry, beaten and stranded by the side of the road....a weary traveler watched two Christians and a Muslim pass them by and then was rescued by a friendly atheist!
Which to me would be evidence that the atheist would get saved eventually.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by ringo, posted 11-27-2015 12:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Pressie, posted 11-30-2015 8:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 11-30-2015 10:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 363 by jar, posted 11-30-2015 6:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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