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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Irrelevant. Because God never created Himself. It's the same scenario: "something" exists without a creator. Why is it more plausible that that something should be an unevidenced god and less plausible that it should be something that definitely DOES exist?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1338 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
Not according to our (alleged) super-smart being. There is only one route. The motions of the atoms in our bodies should be just as predictable to the super-smart being as the motion of the Moon in its orbit is predictable to us. Even in the most predictable system of sciences, very few things are really predictable. The orbiting track of moon seems to be predictable. But it is so only in a short period of time. Nobody knows what the moon's orbit would look like 10 million years from now. Atom movement in your body is predictable? You wish.
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1338 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
So, you do have free will and freedom. Right?
Some of your skeptical atheistic comrades don't think so.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And you too simply show how utterly clueless you are. Your post has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 626 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
This is a thought experiment. Obviously no computational system devised by present-day humans could predict the actions of a human from the trajectories of the atoms that make up the human body.
But given the initial conditions of a physical system, all the atoms should follow trajectories consistent with physical laws. If we were, somehow, to have two identical systems (two identical universes), their future histories would be exactly the same. It would be impossible for them to be different. But that means the human beings in the systems don't have free will. Free will implies that in one universe a different choice might be made than in the other.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
If we were, somehow, to have two identical systems (two identical universes), their future histories would be exactly the same. It would be impossible for them to be different. What if the physical laws by which the systems evolve have built in randomness (a la quantum theory)? Then the two systems could diverge at every quantum level operation and interaction and follow very different paths. That sort of randomness would not constitute free will as generally conceived but it would mean the end states are different and only calculable as probabilities rather then the more clockwork model you envisage.
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 626 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
That's a very interesting point. But, as you say, there is a distinction between "making a choice" and "random chance"!
Freedom of choice is somewhere in between the determinism of a mechanistic model of the universe (even if there are only probabilities instead of certainties) and the randomness of some physical processes (such as whether or not a particular unstable atomic nucleus will decay). What is free will anyway? How would one devise an experiment to determine whether or not in this universe we have free will?
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Because it is more plausible that a Creator is running things than that human wisdom should be the preferred tool for the explanation of all seen and unseen. Also that given human nature, the Christian mythos is rational and has helped social progress more than it has hindered it.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Nothing matters in this issue but what god does. that is an argument worthy of satan. It is irrelevant what God knows. All that is relevant is what we do. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's not an answer. WHY is it more plausible? How are you measuring plausibility? I'm saying that something that DOES exist is a more plausible cause than something that might exist.
Because it is more plausible that a Creator is running things than that human wisdom should be the preferred tool for the explanation of all seen and unseen. Phat writes:
Even if that was true, what does it have to do with plausibility compared to other religions? Also that given human nature, the Christian mythos is rational and has helped social progress more than it has hindered it."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The thread is about omnisience. How on earth could it possibly be irrelevant what God knows? It is irrelevant what God knows."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: jar writes:
that is an argument worthy of satan. It is irrelevant what God knows. All that is relevant is what we do. Nothing matters in this issue but what god does. And so once again instead of addressing the issue raised you once again like all the Apologist simple refuse to even consider the crap you market. Again Phat, what is the topic? It really is simple. If the god is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and if that god has foreknowledge and if ANYONE is damned to hell then that god is vile, evil, despicable and unworthy of any worship or respect. You simply cannot have it any other way. The issue is that neither you or any Apologist has ever accepted the reality of the god you and they market. Nothing matters in this issue but what god does. In Message 1062 did you say Phat writes: 2) God informs them that they are sheep (or goats) because they did what they did. Thus, even if He foreknew their destiny, they chose their destiny based on what they did in this life. If you made that statement then you were claiming that god DID have foreknowledge and that some people were treated as Goats. Or of course like all the carny huckster you can once again simply refuse to address the issue I presented.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Because we become the decisions that we make. The thread is about omniscience. How on earth could it possibly be irrelevant what God knows? We do not become the decisions that God has made about us."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What does that silly bumper sticker mean? How do we "become decisions"? Because we become the decisions that we make. And our decisions have nothing to do with what God knows.
Phat writes:
Then God is irrelevant. We do not become the decisions that God has made about us."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: Because we become the decisions that we make. I suspect that our own decisions form only small very small part of what we become. For a start, we are a product of the genetic make up of our parents and our time and place of birth determine our culture and our beliefs. Parental income determines educational standards and parenting itself predicts outcomes for health, crime and achievement. Our personalities and intelligence are not our choices, nor are our psychological illnesses and dispositions. We are all products of our genes and our environment, it's far too simple to suggest that we are in control of our life choices - the majority are either already made for us or are not acheivable.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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