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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
Thugpreacha
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Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 381 (175154)
01-09-2005 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
01-08-2005 11:07 AM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
jar writes:

Do Biblical literalists ever read the Bible?

If someone can go so far as to claim Biblical literalism, this person would also believe in a supernatural reality that is apart from everyday observable life. Some have claimed to see such a reality. This opens up quite a can of worms, because the Bible would then be thought of as not so much another set of ancient philosophies so much as a record of a Divine spiritual battle.

In THIS context, we really could not determine the state of the world before a literal Fall. We are used to viewing the Bible through the lens of critical thinking and human intellect. If we view the Bible through a literal lens that believes a spiritual war between angelic/demonic forces that have poweres and abilities that are unexplainable, it would fit that there was no death before the Fall.

I know that you are a reasonable old country boy, jar, so I really don't expect you to agree with a literalist view. You must admit, however, that once a literal Spiritual reality apart from our daily experience is considered, ALL things truly do become possible.


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 Message 19 by jar, posted 01-08-2005 11:07 AM jar has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 381 (175269)
01-09-2005 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Brian
01-09-2005 2:07 PM


Re: Literal part timers
Brian writes:

I think that they read the Bible, but they do not think about the words for themselves. They appear to accept what they have been told references mean rather than deciding for themselves.


Sinful humans, full of the wisdom of the world which is foolishness to God are not able to discern scripture. They may well "decide for themselves" what it means, but this would go in line with
NIV writes:

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

I realize that scripture is interpreting scripture. What other source should one use to interpret scripture? Our own minds are not even programmed to be able to discern scripture. Human wisdom is not a trustworthy source if the humans have no spiritual source. (And if they believe only in themselves, they are being deceived. This is literalism, gentlemen.)

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 381 (175271)
01-09-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
01-09-2005 2:15 PM


Re: Literal part timers
jar writes:

But perhaps it is simply that they do not understand what literal means?

What DOES it mean, Jar? The issue is this:
What is the literal source of the wisdom? Who wrote the book? Obviously humans did. Who inspired them, however?

To one who does not personally know or relate to God, the Bible IS meaningless except through the interpretation of the reader.


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 381 (175303)
01-09-2005 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by truthlover
01-09-2005 5:57 PM


Re: Literal part timers
You have a good point. You and I understand how God can inspire those who know Him, yet how do we explain this to non believers or to otherwise polite intellectual humanists without they thinking of us as arrogant?

I know when scripture is inspired. I can use it in a Bible study to teach a lesson about human nature or moral principles, and many many people of different denominations will agree with me without much debate. Critics will say that we believe what we are taught without thinking critically. Why is this? Do they define critical thinking as objective enough to dismiss any supernatural influence? As if the Bible were on Oprahs book club? I then point out to them that they are using human wisdom as their ultimate yardstick. The Bible is not a human philosophy book. It is about humans...very fallible humans interacting with God throughout history.


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 381 (175364)
01-10-2005 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by sidelined
01-09-2005 6:41 PM


Re: Literal part timers
sidelined writes:

The question is not one of arrogance but of wherther you have an understanding of the full spectrum of ways in which you may decieve yourself.

OK..lets cut to the chase. Critics have said that it is an error to use the Bible to prove itself. My response is that for a literalist, Jesus is a living reality. He is as alive as you are. Knowing the character of Jesus...through impartation of the Spirit and through corroboration with His words, how am I deceiving myself by accepting Him? Why does it make sense to resist falling into this spiritual reality?

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-09-2005 23:15 AM


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 381 (175369)
01-10-2005 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by berberry
01-10-2005 1:45 AM


Re: Literal part timers
This is what I see as the essential difference in liberal and conservative Christianity. One group desperately needs the literal words of the bible in order to justify its faith while the other does not.
OK..but even if we don't need the words, we DO need the Spirit. The problem is how to convince you that the Spirit is not our own human wisdom.

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 381 (175412)
01-10-2005 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by sidelined
01-10-2005 2:40 AM


Re: Literal part timers
Sidelined, if you were to trust this source, it may provide SOME evidence that even people without much access to the Bible CAN become converts. The source is from the radio show...now syndicated...of an old American Preacher, Dr. J. Vernon McGee.(Now deceased) You can listen to him at this website:http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru_the_bible_with_jvernon_mcgee/Archives.asp His credentials were genuine---he was a theologian. He knew his Bible and he was a literalist.
Taken from the website:

LETTERS FROM LISTENERS
Letters from South Asia
India:
Kannada: We are from another faith and very strong in our traditions and rituals. At one time, my three children and husband became very sick. We began to visit temples, but it was no use. We lost our children. We were unable to bear the death of our children and had decided to take our lives. The next morning as we were tuning our radio, your program was on the air. We listened with much interest as God spoke to us, and we began to listen regularly since then. We stopped worshiping idols, and accepted Jesus as our Savior and took water baptism. We thank you so much for your program, which led us to salvation and to the living God.
Urdu: By listening to this program, I came to know about the Lord Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as my personal Savior. Through my testimony and the sharing of the Word of God, some of my friends have also accepted Him. I want to thank you for your beautiful program through which you saved my life.
Assamese: I am able to know many unknown things about Jesus Christ by listening to your program. I have never before heard any teachings from the Bible, so it is new to me. I have learned that Jesus is not the founder of the Christian religion, but He is the Savior of mankind.
English (Indian): I am a Roman Catholic priest. At present, I am working in a seminary in the state of Kerala. It is my privilege to hear an inspiring program like Thru the Bible. The teaching on the Word of God from the Bible in such a clear manner is very encouraging to me. It helps me understand the Bible better.
Deccani: I listened to your program for the first time recently, and felt good the whole day. It is like an angel coming to me and telling me good things from God. I want to know more about God, so please send me a Bible. Please tell me about God in detail.
Kok Borok: I love to listen to your program, which has enriched my spiritual life. I had a great zeal to know more about the Word of God and now I have found your program as a wonderful instrument to gain spiritual knowledge. I also have a desire to propagate the gospel to the people in my village, as they are living in darkness, and there is rampant practice of witchcraft and other evil habits. Therefore, please uphold me in your prayers, and especially the people in my village. Also, kindly send me some literature that I can distribute to them.
Bangladesh:
Bengali (Muslimi): I am from another faith. I am so happy to hear the Word of God. I am deeply drawn to the love of Jesus Christ, and that is why I have created a radio listener's club, which now has 17 members. We all listen to the program together. Please send me some more booklets that I can distribute to my club members.
Nepal:
Nepali: I am a Buddhist. I came to know your program from a Christian friend who is a regular listener. Despite fear of opposition from my husband and villagers, I began to listen to the program. It was a blessing to me. I like to listen to the Word of God and want to know more about the love and salvation of Jesus. Please pray for me.

Of course, you may be skeptical of the claims being accurate. I am not. This is one of the better Christian ministeries out there.
sidelined writes:

I only say that it is not a reality because it is not universally applicable.

Spiritual acceptance of Jesus Christ...through the ministeries of others..IS universally applicable IF people so choose to accept it.(Him)
sidelined writes:

Perhaps it emotionally satisfying. Perhaps it fillls a void caused by the normal process of living.Perhaps it fills a social need.Fall into it, embrace it.It is your life to do with as you please.

And it is not everyone who accepts or embraces it. So it IS universally applicable yet not universally acceptable. That would be in line with scripture.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-10-2005 04:24 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 01-10-2005 2:40 AM sidelined has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 54 of 381 (175413)
01-10-2005 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by berberry
01-10-2005 2:04 AM


Re: Literal part timers
berberry writes:

What I'm trying to do is point out that your logic of "Holy Spirit + Word of God = Good and Trustworthy" is flawed.

OK, berberry. I accept your challenge but you have to do it my way. Here is a good American preacher. Pick ANY of his sermons and show me ANY flaws in his logic. Take your time...
http://www.intouch.org/intouch/site.show_page?p_id=77395

By the way, the mans name is Charles Stanley. read about him on his website.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-10-2005 04:31 AM


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 56 of 381 (175508)
01-10-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by sidelined
01-10-2005 10:08 AM


Re: Literal part timers
sidelined writes:

Perhaps we should track them down and see what they have learned to see if there are gaps in their knowledge as is often shown to be the case on this forum.

And what "knowledge" would you teach them. That death is final for living organisms so make the best of today? How does that help uplift a family who lost their children in a tsunami? Make more kids? Survival of the fittest? Quit moping and smell the roses, perhaps? Spirituality is comforting to some people and I have seen changes in attitudes. That is the bottem line even if it could be said that the comfort is incidental.
sidelined writes:

This supports my argument that it is necessary to have exposure to the bible before the belief comes to bear.A real living entity as you describe would have no need of such.

So you are saying that IF God were real, He surely would do it a different way?
The way that it is done is through relationship. Of course you know this, and I am not saying that you could not relate to a hurting family from your heart. What comfort would you give them?
sidelined writes:

The difficulty lies not in convincing me of claims-- it is in convincing me that the claims are free from bias and self referential sublties of human error.

So how would the people that you helped be any different? What is it that you would give them that would be better?

I think I sense your answer. You think that the greatest gift that a person can receive is the revelation that they can think for themselves, achieve for themselves, and thrive by their own initiative. Tell that speech to the Wal-Mart worker who toils 40 hours a week to barely support a family. Even better, the Chinese worker who labors to make those cheap goods with a weekly wage of $10.00. I may tell them that there is more to life than money. My spirituality may give them hope. What hope will you tell them? Perhaps that they can come to America, get an education, and teach their children about insects and asteroids? The mysteries of the great wonder of a godless universe?

sidelined writes:

I rejected that long ago on grounds that such not only could not be the case in reality but even in the context of devils advocate the means by which the gift is given {Christ and the cross} has made me choose otherwise.

And I would say that you rejected a manmade concept of religion. If you had actually met the Creator, you would not have taken Him so lightly. You would leave the ball in His court rather than walked away. You have not yet chosen. If you truly HAVE chosen, I will see you at the next dance.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-10-2005 11:02 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 381 (175923)
01-11-2005 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Brian
01-09-2005 5:49 AM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
Lets look at these scriptures:
Deut 13:1-4= If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

1) Only one source (Yahweh) is to be listened to.
Ezek 13:1-4
The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: 'Hear the word of the LORD! This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!
There are only two spirits. 1) God 2) Our own(fallen angels need to capture our wills..our spirits..to have any power.) This goes back to the tree of knowledge of either/or. Before that, there was One Spirit to listen to. The serpent had no "Spirit" so he told us that we were gods...we were an alternative source.

God is warning of attributing wisdom to any source besides Himself.

Brian writes:

God tells lies to test Israel.

No, the prophet lies if he attributes the wisdom to any source including himself. There is but one source. The other sources are lies. Gods Spirit=Gods imagination. human self deification, wisdom, etc=vain imagination. Call it psychology, call it "chutulu", or call it what you like.

This was why the Tower of Babels languages were confused. God simply would not allow humanity to pool its collective imagination without Him being glorified. People are still trying to exclude Him today.

Look at a modern paraphrase:

message bible writes:

Deuteronomy 13
1When a prophet or visionary gets up in your community and gives out a miracle-sign or wonder, 2and the miracle-sign or wonder that he gave out happens and he says, "Let's follow other gods" (these are gods you know nothing about), "let's worship them," 3don't pay any attention to what that prophet or visionary says. GOD, your God, is testing you to find out if you totally love him with everything you have in you. 4You are to follow only GOD, your God, hold him in deep reverence, keep his commandments, listen obediently to what he says, serve him--hold on to him for dear life!
5And that prophet or visionary must be put to death. He has urged mutiny against GOD, your God, who rescued you from Egypt, who redeemed you from a world of slavery and put you on the road on which GOD, your God, has commanded you to walk.

It would be as if someone said to Christians who believe that God is the source to wake up! There is no God. Think for yourselves. You are your own source!
The Jews were monotheists. They constantly wanted a source stronger than themselves,(even if but a worldly king) but they tended to listen to whatever sounded good at the time. In todays world, we do the same thing. The most logical source is usually listened to.
God is not logical to the human mind.

I would agree that we are to decide for ourselves, by thinking for ourselves, but to reject God is to follow "other gods." The "other gods" are the deification of our own minds.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-11-2005 14:32 AM


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 211 of 381 (190008)
03-04-2005 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Trae
03-04-2005 9:03 AM


Re: Literal part timers
Those kids would only be judged on what they knew. I would think that most if not all made it to Heaven.

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 381 (190071)
03-04-2005 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Trae
03-04-2005 11:29 AM


Re: Literal part timers
Really, how do you support this Biblically? Humans are born into sin, children are humans. Where does it say that ignorance is a get out of jail free card. Further, what makes you think that most children in third world countries have never heard of Jesus?
Well, do you really think that these children had heard of Jesus in any accountable way so as to make a decision? I would say that they knew no more of Jesus than we know of Buddha.
NIV writes:

2 Peter 3:8-9= The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Seeing as how the Tsunami was a natural event, God cannot blaim humanity for ignorance unless God blaims all of the so called western Christians who knew better.(assuming we do!) God judges humanity by declaring that no one is righteous. God is not so simple as to give us one chance. Surwely anyone who dies is given some chance of acknowledgement of God as a reality choice. Say one of us who is an atheist and who heard of God all their lives but rejected the religion based on common sense and honestly did not feel convicted was driving home and died in a car wreck. I believe that this atheist would have yet one more chance to choose God as a choice before they were fully dead. It is a question of being willing to surrender in the face of overwhelming evidence. It is not a case of having to do so before death. Is anyone willing to admit that they do not know?

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 216 of 381 (199922)
04-17-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by arachnophilia
02-28-2005 9:43 PM


Again we go on about interpretation!
Arachnophilia writes:

by logic. no amount of evidence will ever prove anything, just make it really stupid to think anything else. logically, to die, Jesus has to be mortal. to be mortal, he has to be a man. as a man, he's held to the law. if he breaks the law, it defeats the entire point of your theology.


And who wrote this law?

If I had my own country and I wrote all of the laws, one of them being that no car shall exceed 55 mph, can I as Dictator (Lord over all) have MY car exceed 55 mph? Sure I can.
Could Jesus heal on the Sabbath? Certainly!
Can God die and come back to life? His Son did. God the Father never has died. (except in the minds of those who claim human wisdom as their primary trusted source)

By definition, God defines and controls logic.
Logic does not limit God.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-17-2005 11:42 AM


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 331 of 381 (738856)
10-16-2014 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by MFFJM2
10-12-2014 10:13 AM


Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
Questioning and using critical thinking i.e. reason has nothing to do with having a low intellect, as you call it. It is part of the method we use to determine truth from falsehood.
Would anyone ever be able to become a believer (getting saved, meeting God, etc) if they disciplined themselves to stick to critical thinking or would they forever remain uncommitted...only exploring new evidence as it became available? Just a question...

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 336 of 381 (738911)
10-17-2014 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by ringo
10-17-2014 12:39 PM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
But is it true that we humans by nature don't want a God? Or is that something we solved by exposing the original sin mythos?(not that im entirely convinced by the evidence)

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

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