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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Notice the date of his post, GDR. jar has not yet returned.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: For the same reason that He doesn't make you believe in or worship Him. If He has the power to stop it, why doesn't He use it? If you or I were the only people at an event with money, it would not necessarily mean that we had a responsibility to use it on others. While it would be nice and expected, it should never be mandated. If a Doctor is at a football game, it may be expected for him to offer his services and training if a call went out for a Doctor in the house. The Doctor, however, makes the decision whether to help or not. If a Deity exists who claims to be all-powerful, it would be nice and expected (by humans) for such a Deity to be useful to us. The fact is, however, it is up to the deity...not the audience. It is always up to the individual...society never should have the power to mandate our help nor corral our resources for their collective benefit. Besides...the bottom line is that God and only God decides such matters. You, of course, are free to reject the idea or reality of such a God, should One exist. You don't know all of the facts, however. Perhaps God has better reasons why NOT to help. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
im not looking at the story right now, but common sense tells me that Pharoah resisted God and thus hardened his own heart. God caused it to be hardened in response to Pharoahs free-willed resistance to Gods influence. Does that make any sense in context? Its what usually happens to people...
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: OK, lets think about that. Lets say there was no hell. Never. Lets also assume that there was the hypothetical rebellion in Heaven. Some of the angels began to agree with one specific angel who wanted to do things his own way. This angel was allegedly jealous that God had creatures who freely loved Him. The angel evidently wanted in on some of that action. Whatever. The point is, what type of a place would such a heaven be like? It would be like anarchy at work, where some folks decided they didn't want to work as a team and sought to make their own hours and rules. Arguably God had to make hell as a place for the rebellious workers to freely express themselves because he didn't want them mucking up Heaven.
Our free will depends on what God will do to us if we don't do HIS will. It doesn't matter whether He knows beforehand what we're going to do. Whatever we "choose", He does HIS will.That isn't free will for us. Heaven or Hell is not a reasonable choice. ringo writes: Same thing. Whats so bad about a Heaven where a rebellious angel is given his own abode so as not to disrupt the flow?
What's so bad about a world in which a man who is about to do a mass shooting is struck by lightning? I could live with a God who exerted that kind of useful control.ringo writes:
... to you, free will means having compleeeeeeete freedom to choose milk chocolate or dark chocolate or white chocolate - and you ignore the threat that you'll be tortured eternally for choosing vanilla.phat writes:
Perhaps choosing vanilla has unforeseen consequences down the road...ringo writes: Then let the consequences fall where they may - but we don't need a God to impose additional arbitrary consequences of His own. Let's say that swimming in shark-infested waters was dangerous. lets also say that you wanted the right to swim wherever you wanted, blaming God for the sharks. If God tells you that if you swim there you will die, that itself is not an arbitrary standard. The chips will fall, the sharks will eat, and you will be fish food. You may not have chosen it, but by not listening to God, you experienced that judgement by default. So is God responsible for the sharks? It seems to me you would want a right to challenge God, rebel, and not get judged or punished for it in any way.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im going off of your assumptions that hell makes no sense.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
No punier than a God who needs correction from humans. And which you and jar claim is Biblical.
Why have not the apologists mentioned this anomaly in the stories? Oh, that's right...you think they are all in cahoots to sell snake oil.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
First, let's take your link to Propaganda:
quote:Are you saying that objective information by definition will likely not defend a belief? This irritates me because you have reframed the issue making objectivity the default value. Now, this is not a problem unless objectivity is atheistic or secular humanist in nature, whereupon I would claim bias and propaganda on that end of the spectrum. Second, though while you are a clever debater, you seemingly use a tactic of switching back and forth from neutral objectivity to quoting the Bible when it suits you.For instance, you will claim that Jesus told us to do it or ask Jesus. Then, later on in our ongoing discussions, you will claim that Jesus may not have even existed and that God is fiction. Don't you realize how hard on the head this flip flop becomes? Its almost as if you are more concerned with simply winning a debate than you are for persuading me that your argument is sound. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes: I question it often. There are a lot of things about my faith that I question.
Just for the record Phat, do you actually believe all this stuff about angels in heaven rebelling and god not being able to stop the devil and so on? It is not wise because I believe that my faith must be tested to be proven genuine. Now...did God tell me to believe this? *thinks about it*... No, in my opinion, God expects me to question anything I dont understand. Granted without faith it is impossible to please God. (Thats the message) A double minded mind is unstable. We all have questions and doubts, and we all tend to stick with what we have chosen to believe. Lets take what I see to be your argument.
Tangle writes: In other words, as long as God behaves appropriately in your mind, He is at best worthy of consideration (to exist) but as soon as it is read in scriptures that He is mean, vindictive, obviously a product of human writings, and fallibilities. I'm using heaven as an example of a godly creation that doesn't involve evil and suffering. Apparently it's perfectly possible. I'll grant that our understanding is limited by our fallibilities. For this reason, a war in Heaven seems like a rationale to a perfect God dealing with imperfection, flaws, strong wills opposed to Him, and other such philosophical head of pin issues.
tangle writes: In other words, you describe God as a belief concept based entirely on what you would consider a set of rational characteristics. Granted this makes sense. One would not feel comfortable believing in a God Who could and would allow pain and suffering. It is what it is because life here evolved that way - competition between species, carnivorousness, pain and suffering all makes perfect sense. But no loving god would ever create such a thing and nor is it the only creation possible. I can see your point of view better than you may think. You have simply dismissed any idea of anything unevidenced by science and rationality. And I can appreciate this world view. Why not focus on evidence? Why not go fishing and live life without worrying about philosophical hypotheticals waiting to pounce? For the sake of my mental health and stability, I would be wise to consider doing the same thing. In conclusion, I'm not entirely sure why I cling to belief. It seems it would be easy to let go. But I have subjectively experienced a loving God. Or at least I thought I did. And I won't let that belief go. You dont make it any easier, however.
tangle writes: Seems like a loaded question, doesn't it! If I embrace and accept my free will, I somehow must either deal with an imperfect God or renounce my belief. I said that the existence of free will demonstrates that god is evil or reckless or, in fact, not god. God can and does stop the devil. The devil is in the details. The devil resides in our philosophy. It would be wise for all of us to pay attention to how we think and why we think as we do. It also does not hurt to speculate how we would or should respond whenever various wrenches are thrown into the mix. This sort of thinking also works with those who have no beliefs at all.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Some of us claim to know. It is your job to request that we prove it.
We all know that our grandfathers existed, whether they were good or bad. We do NOT know whether or not God exists. It is reasonable to deny his existence, given the total lack of evidence that he does exist. Also, given the way he is described by his devotees, it is reasonable to reject him.
ringo writes: Perhaps that is why you have such low regard for belief. Belief is an assumption. I have a higher regard for my belief than I have for the need for evidence. One need not prove the obvious to me. I'm not interested in conclusions drawn from made-up assumptions. Let's stick to reality.
You will then ask how my definition of obvious seems diametrically the opposite of yours. You then will likely question my methodology of defining my belief as an obvious assumption. I would also ask why you are the opposite---why you conclude the way that you conclude. *flips through the record*...Ah...you will again repeat that the message has value and the existence or nonexistence of messengers is secondary in importance or relevance. To me that is obvious. It is not as obvious as to why it was easier for you to deny that God exists the way most apologists insist He does. I get that you value belief as a low priority. I conclude that you simply accepted the evidence you found. I have found much of that same evidence and have rejected it. The decision is a choice that should not be backed by evidence pro or con. Now lets go give out spare change...its gonna snow tonite. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I respect knowledge when it is conclusive. Much of the knowledge that counter-apologists get is gathered from the source notes of their fellows: Sam Harris, Jeffrey Jay Lowder, Richard Dawkins, Richard Carrier, and Christopher Hitchens...et al.
(also the logical fallacies arguments) This information is presented as factual but is not yet conclusive in my mind. I have seen other information which many apologists have used. It too is not as of yet conclusive in my mind. In summation, there is no solid conclusion as to the question of whether or not the books of the Bible are reliable as evidence or not. I would argue that a fair number of the detractors also are motivated by emotional gut feel. For whatever reason, they have concluded that religious indoctrination is harmful and fake. Like many apologists, they seek confirmation through the internet, books, and like-minded people. Not everyone is this way. Some of you...too few...are open to information from wither side. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
what right do you have to reject evidence? if evidence conflicts with other evidence i reject both temporarily. I need further verofication.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Dont you see that you want the same position and perspective that the omniscient Deity has?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What? Sit on my throne and have the infinity of all of spacetime before me at a glance? There would be nothing to do except watch this, by now, dreadfully boring movie that I'd already seen an infinite number of times playing out yet again. Let's think this through. Something does not sound right in your scenario. If I decided I wanted to intervene in even the slightest way I couldn't since all was already done whether I'd intervened or not. I would be powerless ... and bored. Do you see anyone as powerless to change their mind? Also, hypothetically, why would God be limited? You claim that all would be done. Yet it is God who would have willed it so. Either by accepting communion with those who chose it or by establishing another community for those who rejected the first offer. Would you argue that there should only be one community? If so, would you require equal community decision-making capabilities with God? And if so, I suppose that that is what we actually have now. The only thing nobody knows or can know is their final destination. We cant really argue that we have any say in it...apart from doing the best that we can do on a daily basis.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just from the bible, then, you cannot rightfully make a decision either way. You have a good point. Critics would argue that you did have a clear choice, but I can see your argument that in fact, you don't have certainty beyond a reasonable doubt. Just from the bible, with all the questions of authorship, veracity, and reliability, as you say, there is no basis upon which to make a god-done-it decision. But, with the other evidence we have from all the sciences which show that a god is not necessary to accomplish the reality we see in this universe we are forced into a position of rightfully discounting, almost to zero, the various god-done-it philosophies. With all the holy books being under such questionable veracity there appears to be no evidence to counter this conclusion.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: Looking back at these old arguments, I was thinking about what tangle said about why cant God just make heaven now? (The only truly good thing He has supposedly made?) Tangle argues that God is evil for allowing evil,death, and suffering when He logically has the power to prevent it. Ringo makes the same argument, essentially. It's the ability to know, not the fact of knowledge which is the issue.What we will do is only knowable if it is inevitable. So if God could choose to know at any point in time, what we will do must be inevitable at every point in time. One can bring up the point that if God foreknew everyone's destiny, it would only not be evil if everyone was in heaven and if everyone was happy in heaven. But isn't that a bit how the dogma and mythos was initially presented? Was there not a war in heaven? Did not 1/3 of the angels get cast out, led by Satan? (arguably taught in much of Christian mythos) Granted God created them and thus God knew they would rebel. In essence, this action was the original evil. The evil was in shunning God. We humans cannot fathom the consequences of such an action because we have never experienced that freedom at that level. Of course, people always joke about God, gods, fairies, demons, spaghetti monsters and all sorts of created gods and deities. I think that Dungeons & Dragons initially popularized such thinking...but it has always been one of humanities basic arguments aginst the idea of an uncreated first cause God that WE initially didnt imagine or make up. The point still stands, however, that we cannot fathom the hypothetical action of freely moving out of the "house" and becoming independent on a heavenly level. We argue that there is really no such thing as that sort of freedom unless God did not *know* or *foreknow* that it would occur. Otherwise, the blame passes to Him for even giving out the freedom to rebel and become independent. So again, it gets back to your first statement:
It's the ability to know, not the fact of knowledge which is the issue. Hypothetically, imagine that the mythos was true. Imagine that you were being booted out of the club simply for desiring autonomy and independence. Imagine that you were a bit envious that the Creator ran the whole show and could create living things that had a capacity to love Him exclusively...sorta like how our kids supposedly love us more than they do the neighbors. Would you complain if God foreknew that you would become a rebel?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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