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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I had evidence. It was simply subjective. I alone experienced it. Experience can never be objective.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im not sure I understand. Is evidence only objective or "reliable" if everyone sees it? The Bible speaks of two distinct groups of people. The many and the few.
My argument is basically that the "evidence" is objective for the few and unreliable (and vacuous) for the many. Just because most people don't get it does not mkean that its unreliable---if anything it means that most people are too dense to get it. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Glad you edited that. Everyone can and should investigate a claim, but the claim itself states that few will find it.(or agree with the claim)
Meanwhile in Washington DC on the 4th of July, Trump spoke and seemed to voice the common goal of the US population:quote:Two other notable themes of the Bible are the fact that the majority prefers a popular pardon as opposed to pardoning Jesus (or Christ as living philosophy in today's world). The Christian view is strongest when a minority embrace it and live it. Too many of todays Christians are posers and wannabe believers...they want a God who will make them rich, but do not want to die to themselves and actually take up Larosse and follow Him (as jar would say) Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I can understand Sprouls logic far better than I can the mumbo jumbo word salad that masquerades as Word Salad here at EvC from the likes of AZPaul3, Tangle, and to a lesser extent Stile and ringo. Stile has a love of his opponents that is absent in AZPaul3. ringo just likes to argue, and I have a grudging respect of how God uses him--the atheist--to force me to sharpen my arguments. Theodoric has an inner disdain for Charismatics, Conservatism, and even the idea of the God we market.
And (nobody listens to these audio podcast but) I am on board with Sprouls basic logic:
Self Creation One further thought:
Brian Miller writes: A little-known fact about intelligent design is that the majority of it scientists already perform their work alongside colleagues with differing views. And they do so peacefully. Typically this requires great discretion. Sharing thoughts about design in nature indiscreetly risks turning yourself into a target for anti-design zealots. One member of our community, for example, received a postdoc from Harvard in a biology sub-discipline. He mentioned that about one quarter of the postdocs he engaged with were at least sympathetic to design arguments. However, with career concerns in mind, none shared their views in public. In truth, most science professors are reasonable, fair-minded people who take no offense at colleagues’ personal beliefs so long as the latter conduct good research. Unfortunately, a vocal minority in the sciences has caused enormous problems. One prominent critic of ID went so far as to travel to various universities and display pictures of known design advocates, so faculty and staff would know not to hire them. Such blacklisting, in the manner of McCarthy era, represents an extreme. Nevertheless, several scientists we know have lost job opportunities for failing to pay homage to the materialist faith. Im curious what Miller, a member of the Discovery Institute, means when he talks of this "gospel" of materialism?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Miller writes:
This past month I had the honor of teaching at Hong Kong Baptist University in a summer program sponsored by the Centre for Sino-Christian Studies. I was joined by Discovery Fellows Paul Nelson and Paul Chien. Guest lectures were also presented over the Internet by Stephen Meyer, Douglas Axe, and Gnter Bechly. The participants included students and academics from Hong Kong and from mainland China. The discussions covered a range of topics related to intelligent design in nature. I spoke about the evidence for fine tuning in the laws of physics and about the need for preexistent information to explain the origin of life. Paul Nelson explained how the materialist philosophical assumptions commonly adopted in scientific disciplines hinder progress and distort perceptions of reality. He also addressed the origin of life (using what he called “The Humpty-Dumpty Principle”), evo-devo and the origin of animal body plans, and the illicit role of theology in evolutionary reasoning. Theology in that scientific context is illicit, Paul argued, not because there is anything wrong with theology, but because the rule of methodological naturalism, which nearly all evolutionary biologists profess, pointedly excludes theological premises.AZPaul3 writes: The problem is that your assertion (which supports Methodological Naturalism, I bet...gotta read more to find out) I don’t think anyone can show any evidence that this connection takes on the type of woo connection to some cosmic consciousness you may be hoping to believe. Again, as always, evidence, not some wishful hope, would be required to see consciousness as anything more than the human body’s user-interface into our local environment.suggests that basic human interaction through the scientific method and human intelligence drawing on inference and theory replaces the need for Theology. Ye shall be as gods. Don't you get it? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: I might understand more than I think I do. Miller mentions that Oh the "Gospel of materialism" and the "materialist faith" are just ways of describing the naturalist method of the sciences, which you seem to understand so I'm surprised you don't feel you do.quote:I do believe in a spiritual war of ideas and ideologies and I see evidence of it every day. Faith writes: I dont think Percy hates you. I think he just loves his toys and in his defense he would claim that he is forcing you to think outside the box and develop a better vocabulary to get around the censorship rather than simply rearranging the words to f i t o n t h e p a g e. I tell ya, the words Percy has been choosing to eliminate from my posts are a strange collection. Thoght" for instance, and "thlnk" and now "t h e o l o g y." His h a y t r e d of me is pretty extreme.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
God foreknew that we had a sin nature and wanted to figure everything out for ourselves rather than kowtow to His authority. It will likely take awhile longer before we admit that Dad was right all along.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
All you are doing is quoting the book and essentially telling me what it says.
All I am doing is expounding on the words and telling you what it means. You are of course free to disagree. He gave you that inalienable right. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It is you who are using the book to push your belief on the rest of us and then claiming that all you are doing is quoting the book. The snake was subtle too, so I expect this sort of stuff from you. God may use you to sharpen me, but He also used satan to sharpen humanity...those that will make it, at any rate. We want you on that bus also, but you seem to insist that you drive.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Fair enough, lets go back and review the exchange. I am going to take this response over to General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List'). Meet me there. Message 1029
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Admin, : Replace text for thread and message with links.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: Are you thus claiming that every "religious" or spiritual believing person who claims to have allowed the Spirit of the Living God into them is thus delusional and crazy? Science is not limited by *any* phenomenon humans can experience. We can science anything. Batshit Crazy Religious Person Syndrome is just another example. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
First of all the book says that a majority is called to this communion yet a minority--few--accept it. You have claimed that the called are known by their works but that we are essentially saved--or chosen by our belief and works...which ideally go hand in hand. Thus the evidence of a regenerated soul would be joyous works...freely and willfully done.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Your scholarly position based on facts and what we collectively know about History makes careful, considered sense and I respect it. I believe that the pattern and theory applies but believe Jesus Christ to be an exception to the pattern.
Son Goku writes: I think that I understand your position. For one thing, (and especially in the case of Jesus the Christ) human anthropomorphism became a modern scholarly concept which graduated from the ancient concepts and beliefs as humanity began to connect through the medium of the printing press, increasing tribal and cultural interaction, and smarter phones leading to dumber sheeple.(One of Buzzsaws favorite words)
What I'm saying is that the beings directly presented in the texts are not real.Son Goku writes: I agree. The modern day mythicists present a compelling case for the creation (and evolution) of such a Jesus...while the modern day apologists (a few of whom I respect, though not many) tend to further the philosophical Jesus as a living legend personified in the believers of today's time themselves. To say all of this is actually a veiled reference to an entity completely unlike this requires a remove from the texts and historical evidence to a more philosophical argument. What are your personal observations and experience with such philosophies where you live? Positive or Negative, overall? Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
To further our discussion, I thought you might enjoy perusing this article:
God In Mathematics The article talks about the philosophical (and theological) beliefs of Vern Poythress. He is by any reasonable standard a deeply and widely educated man. He has six academic degrees, a B.S. from CalTech and a PhD from Harvard in mathematics. An M Div, ThM, M Litt, and a ThD in various theological disciplines from Westminster Seminary, Cambridge University and the University of Stellenbosch respectively. He now teaches New Testament (and on occasion: philosophy of science and philosophy of language) at Westminster. He publishes books, popular articles and journal articles on a broad range of topics. It is rare to find someone in your academic fields of discipline that also has such an interest in Theology. Personally, I agree with your observation about philosophy and biblical accuracy and inerrancy,(if such a concept can even be defended). Son Goku, addressing GDR writes: You can't apply quantum theory. It wouldn't mean there is nothing, just that the theory is written from the perspective of an observing agent. If there is no agent the theory can't be applied.Now in many cases where there is no agent one can still apply the theory by imagining a fictional agent. For example I can still apply QM to a gas cloud in space because I can "imagine" what a little robot doing observations on the cloud might see, even if there is no robot there. However in cases where there can't be a classical agent the theory cannot be applied. An example would be the early universe. I had a friend who was advised off doing a PhD applying quantum theory to the early universe because the theory simply breaks down there because there can't be agents. One would think (or imagine) that there could be agents in that Jesus was in the beginning with His Father and thus was the original observer regarding Creation in general. Granted it is simply a philosophical belief backed (of course) by no evidence. If one limits their awareness of God to the God described in the book(s) then God is limited to the lifespan of the original authors. Ringo makes this argument as he asserts that nowhere else can I find Jesus except in the book. In contrast, my Pastor explains it this way: Pastor Joe Aragon writes: Ecclesiastes tells us that God has “set eternity in the human heart.” Humans are created in the image of God (Ge 1:27), and God lives in eternity (Rev 1:8). Solomon poses the idea that humans have an innate desire in their hearts for something beyond their earthly lives. Humans were not made to live, die and cease existing. Something about how God designed humans makes them stretch toward the eternal God. Scripture eventually reveals that humans were made to live eternally with God. It is natural for our hearts to feel as if there has to be something more ” because there is something more. John 3:16 and 1 John 2:25 both confirm that God promises eternal life to those who believe. The reason eternity is so appealing to humans is because that is exactly what God created humans for in the first place ” to live in relationship with eternal God himself. Keep in mind that we are still discussing this stuff philosophically. There are many counter arguments and I myself try and learn them to either defend or update my position. I plan on reading some of the books authored by Vern Poythress. I found links to a couple here:
Chance and the Sovereignty of God: A God-Centered Approach to Probability and Random Events Chance and the Sovereignty of God: Randomness on Vimeo Edited by Thugpreacha, : accurate factsChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I think that Son Goku hit the nail on the head when he asserted that beliefs can really only be discussed philosophically and not historically accurately due to the fact that there is such controversy between the apologists and the mythicists. Out of curiosity, what did you study and major in when you attended school? You seem to be well read and mathematically inclined.
(I was never really good at math, but as a cashier, I add and subtract in my head every day ) Also...what is your opinion on the belief that Jesus was the original and initial observer which allowed the possibility of early quantum mechanics in the creation of the known universe?
How do you know there is something rather than nothing? All I can say is I think therefore I am. (I think!) Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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