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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The existence of free will either disproves god or proves that he is either evil or reckless. Nonsense. Who cares what God could know? To put it another way, let's personify reality. Reality knows what I will do tomorrow. Does that mean I am incapable of doing otherwise? See how silly it all sounds? We have free will within the parameters of reality. Thus, your argument has no steam in saying that we don't have free will.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Oh, I think I get it. To you, free will means being freely out from under the control of the overlord's destiny.
In other words, you should have the right to choose whatever you want without being bound by the preconditions of destiny. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What's so bad about a world without earthquakes, tsunamis, forest fires, etc.? What's so bad about a world in which a man who is about to do a mass shooting is struck by lightning? I could live with a God who exerted that kind of useful control. True, it does sound attractive. And it does place God on the stand. He now must explain why He does not intervene as we suggest He should. Will The Real God Please Explain Himself?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why should there be any "preconditions of destiny"? It sounds autocratic to suggest that God foreknows all destiny. If we substitute the word "reality" for God, does it sound as bad to suggest that reality "knows" all destiny? Perhaps you think that hell is an unnecessary precondition. Which gives ringo compleeeeeat freedom to do whatever his pea-picking soul desires. Reality itself may impose preconditions on your carnal fest. Perhaps choosing vanilla has unforeseen consequences down the road... a road that we who are bounded by time cannot see.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence. Why have hope? Wait for the evidence.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So basically, believers trust that God exists and that it is our responsibility to tow the line...whereas you doubt that God exists but that IF He does, He had better get off His almighty arse and do His job.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I said that the existence of free will demonstrates that god is evil or reckless or, in fact, not god. And I fail to see how there is even a possibility that free will would make a God necessarily evil. Unless, as you may charge, He is failing to do His job.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Personally, I'll go with the argument that suffering builds character and makes for stronger human prototypes to someday launch out into space. Are you suggesting that a loving God would build a Heaven for us to all dwell in now? (As my loving Father, the homebuilder, built a home for us when I was small?) I say we humans are far too weak and flawed to dwell in such a lavish place. Unless of course, God remade us stronger, kinder, and gentler. Some would argue that He is letting us strengthen ourselves. You have mentioned that society is improving...we are becoming more moral...with or without a God or the approval or scrutiny of One.
Of course, some of my religious contemporaries cling to that whole original sin idea...claiming that what we really need is the establishment of Communion with said God. You may argue that it is God Who needs improvement rather than us. Funny argument that. jar always pushed that crap...that human corrected the god character. But as long as we are imagining One, I suppose we can suggest improvements...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Oh, stop! I obviously know all too well that you and ringo are both quite human and quite likable...otherwise, I would never bother going rounds with you. I was just getting frustrated at ringos arguments. You make many of the same ones in your own unique style. To be honest, your arguments occasionally resonate with me and I honestly can't shrug them off as adamantly as Faith does. The way that you describe the belief does make it sound ridiculous at times. Really Phat, stop projecting, put your prejudices away and start understanding that atheists are fully human too.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School.
ringo writes:
How can one imagine a way that God *would* stop him?
How can you possibly excuse a God who would not stop him? Seriously though...IF God existed, what demand would or should humanity place on His responsibility of office? AddbyEdit: He likely would inform us that it was our responsibility to have treated the mentally deranged person with more love years before this happened. So where does the buck stop? Gods desk or ours? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Like you say, the evidence shows that we have to do it. Maybe thats why you consider Him unnecessary even if He did exist.
Perhaps He wants it this way...for us to develop empathy and compassion without help. Or perhaps He does not exist, but that wont hinder my belief. The lesson I need to learn is that He likely expects me to do it myself. *grumble grumble*..... ICANT argues that God has never let him down and that they commune daily. I will make the same claim, and I won't rule out that God is actively involved...just by giving me quiet encouragement. Why feel alone in this universe? (For those of us who are unmarried) Edited by Phat, : added jabberwockyChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If God has ANY power, why wouldn't He use it? One could argue that He gave us the power and expects us to develop it.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This whole attitude that humans are capable of or expected to prod God into action is just silly. Either do it yourself and don't trust Him or admit that what you ask is, in fact, a prayer request and go ahead and pray it or acknowledge that you did.
You switch back and forth from scripture to counter-apologetics as fast as Pharoah turned his head. Hypothetically, would you resist prayer on the grounds that you rate belief lower than low? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If we have "free will", we should be free to consider God wrong, from our point of view. Ok, then what? Him being wrong doesn't change anything.
What annoys me is the idea that God already has my place in Hell reserved, that I don't even know yet what it is that will send me there but He does - and YOU have the gall to suggest that its my choice. It may well be a choice of yours down the road. Who cares if He knows it before you did? You still have to go through the motions of making the decision. And who is to say that he altars that in any way...apart from foreknowledge?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I gave the examples of God messing with Pharaoh's head and genociding Sodom and Gomorrah. God may have been stimulating Pharoahs conscience. The issue may have been what Pharaoh's eventual destiny would become. As for Sodom, they made their own bed. Volcanos happen. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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