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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Are you saying that if, for example, you and I could at this moment open a Big Book that showed my future written down by GOD and that my future (in the book) turned out to be an evil one that it would thus be my duty and obligation to oppose such a plot and to oppose the author of such a plot? (if so, I am beginning to understand your perspective)
For the record, I don't believe that I am powerless at this moment in time to influence my own future. My future is based in part on the decisions that I make on a daily basis. If we could prove that GOD foreknew our futures, would that in and of itself be a valid gripe against Him?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Hypothetically, does this include "fallen" angels? If God created angels foreknowing that a third of them would rebel and actualize destiny, would it be God who was evil or would it be "evil" that sought to be like God? If God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will get damned then that God is evil. I realize that this is all hypothetical silly talk based on dogmas that many Christians believe. Many believe that God personifies good and that Satan personifies bad. My question is if God created Lucifer foreknowing that Lucifer would choose to become a rival franchise, would God be responsible for the rival franchise or would Satan? (I say that this makes Isaiah 45:7 more sensible than before)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Asgara writes: Time sure flies. And I am sure that you are wiser now than you were then.
Thanks for replying to a nine year old post...sheesh In your view does he or doesn't he know your outcome before he creates you? Honestly I don't know. If He knows anything, He is being quiet about it. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Of course, we are exhorted to become "like Jesus". The idea that trying to become God or be like God is wrong or evil is just another Christian Cult of Ignorance con job. Becoming like Jesus is one thing..."becoming Jesus" will likely get you thrown in a mental ward.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: What IF God created someone who had the capability of "damning" themselves? Would God still be responsible for the ones who chose damnation? If God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will get damned then that God is evil. Somehow I think that we tend to confuse evil with responsibility for evil. We may well argue that God is responsible for any and all evil based on the fact that He "created" evil. Or not.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What if GOD knew your choice at the precise moment that you made your choice? What if the communion was not a before or after communion but rather a moment-in-time communion? Your decision...made by you...known at the same moment by God...
Does that make any sense? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ned writes: Not quite. Im saying that God knows when we freely choose Him and doesn't know when we freely choose otherwise. (depart from me I never knew you) that makes sense, but then God is not omniscient in the way most people think. And you are saying he is just like you and me, he knows it when it happens.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What "choice" has "the GOD" made?
Ned writes: It is the knowing in advance that is the issue. If God knows (not guessing, not wondering but knows )what is going to happen then the "someone" has no choice. IF God= past+present+future, God is always going to be in the moment that any decision is made. God always knows the moment. God is always in the moment. He is never going to know anything "in advance" of the moment of our choice because he is always in the moment of our choice. We choose. He is present. He knows our choice because He knows us. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: Allow me to quote a couple of scriptures which help me to understand the problem of evil. (They may or may not help you...they may simply be Phats dogma to you... )
I suppose it depends on how you define free-will. If free-will is defined as "the individual makes a choice based on their own intelligent decision" then I don't see how knowledge of that event (past or future) would change such a thing. Rev 1:1 NIV writes: God is showing something which must soon take place. Foreknowledge?
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.Rev 1:4 writes: Past, Present, and Future.
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come GOD was, Is, and Is to come. God is past, present, and future. So we have our Christ...Rev 1:17-18 writes: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And we have our AntiChrist...Rev 17:8 writes:
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. Once Was implies that this creature had a beginning...was created...not eternal. This creature is not in the present moment...and yet is in the future. God foreknows nothing and yet knows everything that happens in His eternal present. Lucifer chose to become satan...just as we choose our destiny on a moment by moment basis...and our present choice becomes our future reality. We become the decisions that we make. God is not evil ...but he beast is evil. God is not evil for allowing the beast to exist. The Beast once chose to become a beast rather than an angel. Similarly, we choose our destiny. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : spelling Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: For God, there is no such thing as foreknowledge. There is but knowledge. God cannot be before herself nor after herself. Does that make sense or would you like another helping of salad? The God created the human and if that God had foreknowledge that that creation would be damned regardless of whether or not the creation had freewill, then that God is vile and evil.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: God has allowed our knowledge (and our decisions) to remain ours. This brings up the issue of communion. If God does not know which path you will take then God did not create you with foreknowledge. IF God is in communion with me this very moment, does God then "know" what I am thinking,choosing, and doing? On a human level, none of us are mind readers. Anyone who knows or claims to know what an individual may do in the future is simply coincidental. The question...the philosophical question, however...is what God knows. My argument is that God is eternally present and thus knows whatever He knows based on communion with humanity. I am then forced to describe what communion (or co-awareness) even means. This gets into the idea of whether we make each and every decision that we make alone...thus having sole responsibility for our destiny...or whether we are guided in some decisions. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: Come let us reason together. What if the scriptures are incorrect?Regardless of the reason why... how would we know? Now what were we talking about?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Keep in mind I am thinking...or attempting to think and reason...on the fly. Some of my statements may need clarification or correction so please feel free to do so. So Ringo, whats your opinion on the whole foreknowledge freewill philosophy?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: What if God had knowledge of evil? Would he be responsible for knowing about it? What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School. Also assume that the "Prime Directive" of Star Trek is logical.
If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil.quote:Should God also restrain Himself or should he supernaturally zap this threat from among us? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Asgara writes: I think im gonna go with the idea that God chooses to let us write our own script and determine our own future. God chooses not to know, in other words. If it is all "now" to god then it still is an issue of creating knowing what is happening...now or future doesn't matter.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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