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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: What annoys me is the idea that God already has my place in Hell reserved, that I don't even know yet what it is that will send me there but He does - and YOU have the gall to suggest that its my choice. IF Hell exists, would you ever want to go there? If the answer is "no" what makes you think that GOD is somehow going to allow you to be tricked and even end up there to begin with? The only reservations made are the ones we make. IF you dont plan on making reservations, why even worry about ultimate foreknowledge?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Your arrogance is showing. Sproul likely knows the bible far better than you do. You have fallen for the whole idea that logic and rationality trump faith when it comes to understanding. As a result, you are unwittingly leading many people down a path that leaves them with more questions and less answers than they had before. This is fine IF GOD simply expects people to learn about the universe rather than about Him. Sadly, I believe that you are mistaken. But of course I too could be wrong. And the RC Sproul quote at best shows his ignorance and more likely shows his carny con man tactics.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar,addressing Faith writes: As if there is a huge number of hucksters and that the true truth seekers learn more from studying "Kim" than by meditating on Jesus Christ! I am thankful that we all do have Free Will because some day there will be no excuse that GOD foreordained us to a certain fate. We will have chosen it every step of the way. You trust the fiction those theologians create...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What business is it of ours to know what GOD knows?
Of course, Open Theism would assert that its no business of GOD what we choose. Does Open Theism make much sense to you?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Attempting to steer this ship back on topic.....
Mr.Hambre writes: To a degree I agree with this statement. Because i believe that GOD is alive through Jesus Christ,(His human conduit) I will tend to accept certain dreams as personal evidence. Granted i will admit that anything I label as "evidence" is subjective in relation to my personal beliefs.
I've long thought that "evidence" is the secular equivalent of "God's will," in that what we already believe defines what we accept as evidence. Stile writes: Like I said...my evidence is subjective. I cannot as of yet produce any objective evidence for Gods foreknowledge or whether or not I actually have free will. Others have thoughts on these issues:
The difficult thing with the will of God, though, is that God Himself is seldom (never?) around to clarify what His will actually is when 2 or more people disagree. This leaves the single interpretation so vague that it becomes useless and unknowable. Therefore, all specific interpretations rely on heresy and are entirely dependent on each individual who reviews the available information.quote: quote: Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
quote: So I type "What Is The Gospel into the google search engine. 30+ sights all say that the Gospel is about Divine Accomplishment. Only jar from Texas says its about doing your best. But you probably never cared much for popularity contests anyway. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: For those following this topic, jar and I have had similar discussions many years ago. Here is one from 2007 in the topic, Evangelical Support group Shall I go on Phat? Whats also interesting is that GDR was offended by jar back then also...and tried to defend me. I will continue this discussion at the Evangelical Support Group topic. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: I've had it happen to me---I remember to this day! I also have witnessed it happening to others. They literally change instantly. ...the change of heart that makes a person a Christian is a supernatural "quickening: or bringing-to-life of the spirit that died at the Fall, much more than conscience. Maintaining the salvation is not our job. I believe, however, that it is our job to be mindful of our attitudes and behaviors. I agree with jar that we should try and do our best every day,confessing when we are wrong and allowing Gods Spirit to strengthen and perfect us. Perhaps some people fear that it is a form of self hypnosis or something and never allow themselves to trust anything they don't understand. What other explanation is there?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Omni writes: Questioning and even doubting ones faith is a normal human reaction. I tend to believe that of one actually lost their faith they never had it to begin with. It takes works to maintain faith, but the Holy Spirit will support your efforts. If we accept that faith in the divinity of Christ and his rising from the dead is the sine qua non of Christian identity, then what are we to do with the losses and lapses of faith reported by ordinary Christians as well as its saints and church fathers?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Look at it this way, Omni. Say I had never met my Grandfather.. I had heard stories and known everything to know about him that I could know...except his very character and presence. It would be easy to say that I never really knew him.
Contrast this scenario with one where I actually had an occasion and opportunity to meet him. We spent time together and I soaked in his character. Given that the second scenario occurred, could I ever then say that I never really knew him? Get the analogy? Christians who have actually had a time when they felt that they met Jesus would never really walk away from the faith no matter how difficult the times must be. Many examples can be given. It has been my observation that--at least around here--people allow logic and evidence to trump their emotional and soulful encounters with the risen Christ. or perhaps they never had a soulful encounter. jar would ask how i knew I had met Jesus. All I can say is that the word "knew" in this context is the same Biblical definition for an intimate encounter.
Perhaps the will or desire to believe could be described as necessary. True. If I had met a Grandfather who abused me, it would be easier to deny he ever existed. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
I tend to believe that of one actually lost their faith they never had it to begin with.Tangle writes: Oh? Explain to me the time you once had faith---and what it was that you had it in? Of course you do, but you're wrong.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
'losing' is a believers concept - there's nothing to be lost. Which means--to me at least--that if you never had faith in anything or anyone other than an idea which you claim is and was made up by others..(nevermind) OK...got it. The idea that there is nothing to be lost is your opinion and belief. Evidence is not simply external and easily replicable. In some cases evidence is internal. For some of us, there is a person in whom we believe and in whom we claim to know. It is to us more than simply an idea---nor a made up one.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Your beliefs can be 'seen' using magnetic resonance imaging of your brain(...) Disciple of Sam Harris, are you? The Time Magazine article *is* interesting, however. I'll give you that. To wit:
Harris says there is no critique of faith hidden somewhere in his brief paper. But his next neurological enterprise may be another matter. He is planning an fMRI run that will concentrate specifically on religious faith, which Harris thinks he now knows how to plumb more deeply. He also plans to set up two different subject groups the faithful and non-believers. "That way," among other things, he says, "you can ask, 'Do believers believe that Jesus was born of a virgin the same way that nonbelievers believe that Chevrolet makes cars and trucks?'" It may turn out that the brain treats religious faith as its own special category of belief unlike ethics and math. I still say its too early to draw any conclusions regarding what is and is not absolute truth....but I'll take into consideration this new knowledge that we humans on our dust speck are amassing---regarding what we know versus what we make up. I maintain that "growing up" does not eliminate the need for spirituality--nor does it imply that belief in Jesus Christ--alive eternally and in communion eternally with humanity---is a bad and destructive mindset. In Line with this topic, you may urge readers to utilize free will and gain knowledge while discarding superstition. In your mind, all religious beliefs are superstitious. As far as Omniscience goes, you may argue that there is nothing nor anyone to whom we could attribute such a trait. I, on the other hand, would embrace waking up each day and surrendering my problems to something and someone in whom I believe. This does not stop me from using critical thinking, discrimination of ideas, or free will regarding less important matters such as which pair of socks to wear. Lets say I read either my Bible or a similar themed text every day. Today, as an example, I pick up a devotional called The Word For You Today and read the following entry:
quote: Would you argue that this start of my day is turning my worldview to mush? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: Well who gets to define them then? I always liked the quote from Louis Carroll...
You don't get to change the meaning of words.quote: I suppose science will scan my brain and find it empty.. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I base the definition on personal experience. "Seeing Is Believing" is to me, evidence. And for the record---NO---I do not need evidence. You can NOT use the word "evidence" for any damn thing you please. If it isn't evidence, don't call it evidence. It's that simple. What is it with you believers, anyway? Is your faith so weak that you have to prop it up by pretending you have evidence?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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