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Author | Topic: The Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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Now you're creating yet a third definition of fake news, one that's primarily subjective and not of much use since by that definition there will be little agreement about what is and isn't fake news. It's not really a definition so much as a transparent justification for falsely casting aspersions. marc9000's contribution is very informative. There is some meat in there, but for the most part, 9K confirms my worst expectations. Let me cite an example here:
marc9000 writes: That's fake news, but many Christians like myself also have decided to consider tricky twists and distorts of the truth to also be fake news. What 9K says here is that whatever he decides is distortion, and his criteria is easily revealed to be subjective and leaning towards whatever he already believes, is fake news. I don't know what would be a more substantial confirmation that the concept of fake news is fairly close to anything he believes isn't correct. And how else could it be? How else can people buy into that "would" vs "wouldn't" explanation that Trump gave yesterday. An explanation that covered one sentence out of a speech full of throwing the FBI/CIA under the bus in Helsinki followed by doing exactly the same thing later on Hannity's show? How does one double negative explain all of that? Easy. The other reporting is fake even if we all saw Trump making those statements, it's all fake. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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No, this isn't about a Trump meal. It's about Trump's changing position on whether Russia interfered in the 2016 election and whether he accepts the findings of his own intelligence organizations. By the time I finish writing this Trump may have yet again flip-flopped, but here's a compilation of Trump's statements over time.
This is Trump at his press conference with Putin in Helsinki saying that he doesn't see why any interference would have come from Russia:
quote: Why wouldn't someone who lies as much as Trump assume that a leader like Putin would also lie? Very strange. Later back at the White House Trump backed off his Helsinki comments, saying he meant to say "wouldn't" instead of "would", though he still waffled at the end:
quote: Then the next day he reversed himself again:
quote: Then later that day he reversed himself again in an interview with CBS News:
quote: This president doesn't speak truth. He says whatever he feels is expedient at the time, true or not. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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The Washington Post yesterday reported on How Trump’s tariffs on Mexico are taking jobs from U.S. workers:
quote: Got that? Trump tariffs could put a flourishing US company out of business by fall. He helped the minuscule steel industry and hurt the huge number of companies dependent upon reasonably priced steel. The article describes the situation of a Mid Continent employee who will be in dire straights if he loses his job:
quote: The article doesn't say whether he's still a Trump supporter, but I bet he is. He doesn't understand that contrary to Trump's claim that trade wars are easy to win, they are not. Trade wars hurt both sides. Fair and open trade is the pathway to world prosperity, not trade wars. Trump has a fundamental misconception about trade deficits. He thinks they're bad. He thinks that if China ships more goods and services to the US than we ship to them, thereby causing us to run a trade deficit with China, that that is a bad thing. He's 180 degrees wrong because the exact opposite is true. A trade deficit means we're purchasing more goods from China than they're purchasing from us because we're richer than they are, because our industries and businesses are more robust and productive and give our citizens more money to spend. Trade deficits reflect economic strength, not weakness. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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NoNukes writes: marc9000's contribution is very informative. There is some meat in there,... I would characterize it as some very tangled and biased confused thinking.
...but for the most part, 9K confirms my worst expectations. Marc seems a typical knee-jerk emotion-driven Trump supporter who refuses to see the worldwide harm Trump is causing. He can't see, for example, the havoc Trmp's wreaking with the NATO alliance and instead thinks the true problem is the negative reports in the news, what he calls fake news, despite every bit of it being true since it consists mostly of quotes of Trump's actual words and the reactions to them. --Percy
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jar Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Percy writes: He can't see, for example, the havoc Trmp's wreaking with the NATO alliance and instead thinks the true problem is the negative reports in the news, what he calls fake news, despite every bit of it being true since it consists mostly of quotes of Trump's actual words and the reactions to them. But that is exactly how the people like Faith & Marc and the whole Christian Cult of Ignorance approach everything, particularly the Bible and Christianity. When confronted by what is actually written in the Bible they claim "fake news", "liberal interpretation", "misrepresentation" and fall back on the dogma of the Christian Right Wing Fascism.
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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I can say that most of my Right Wing Christian associates have in fact defended the Helsinki debacle, but I am angry about it and consider it in no way fake news. I agree with most of what McCain and other officials both Democratic and Republican said in condemning Trump. And yet according to you, I am part of this so-called cult of ignorance. My point is that you cannot generalize.
Now...A bit of humor:
Edited by Phat, : wrong videoChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I think you can. Generally speaking, Americans are idiots or they wouldn't have elected Trump. There are certainly a lot of Americans who aren't idiots but there are enough to make the generalization kinda valid. My point is that you cannot generalize.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17815 Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Be fair Ringo. Clinton got more votes than Trump.
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
PaulK writes:
What about the people who didn't vote at all? If Clinton get a few more votes than Trump, she still didn't get a majority of the eligible voters. Be fair Ringo. Clinton got more votes than Trump.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
What about the people who didn't vote at all? If Clinton get a few more votes than Trump, she still didn't get a majority of the eligible voters. Most voters did not vote for Trump. But your point is well taken. Quibbling about whether Trump is a mistake by 49 or 51 percent of Americans is not much defense against a pretty damning indictment. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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ringo Member (Idle past 402 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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NoNukes writes:
More importantly, most didn't vote against him. The only thing we have to do for evil to prevail is nothing. Most voters did not vote for Trump.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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But that is exactly how the people like Faith & Marc and the whole Christian Cult of Ignorance approach everything, particularly the Bible and Christianity. For whatever this is worth, I know lots of fundamentalists, by which I mean folks who have similar Biblical beliefs to those expressed by Faith. Not a single one of those fundamentalists voted for Trump or supports him now. My point here is that this stuff we are hearing is not required by Christianity. Instead what we are seeing is a bunch of Christians who are willing to emphasize those parts of their religious beliefs that align with their politics. marc9000 made a classic statement along these lines when he accused folks of "cherry picking" when they emphasize what Jesus taught rather than the lessons of the Old Testament. I am reminded of Conservapedia's effort to write their own Bible so that it excludes things not favored by conservatives such as the "let him cast the first stone" story. I am of the belief that many folks will find that the Kingdom of God as talked about by Jesus is a bit too socialist for their liking. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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marc9000 writes: I understand that we may differ in political and ideological viewpoints, but I'm not really sure how you can write the above with a straight face; assuming you're not just trolling. No President in living memory has gloated more than Trump. He regularly goes on Twitter to declare himself a political genius.
A lot of what he does is a reaction to the unprecedented hate he has to deal with every day. Like your hero, you've got things 180 degrees backwards. Trump the Grump spews hate at a phenomenal rate. Let's just examine a few of his recent tweets:
quote: That should be plenty, and those are just Trump tweets over a couple days earlier this week.
He uses Twitter to by-pass the news medias distortions of what he has to say. He mostly uses Twitter to lie, attack people, and issue expressions of hate.
No president in history has had his opponents make complete fools of themselves during the campaign for the presidency. He was justified in the gloating he did, (it was satisfying to many Christians - he owed it to them) and he could have done it more. So you'd like to see more gloating by the president? Just what qualities do you think a president should have? Do you think compassion, inclusiveness, objectivity, honesty and integrity should be among them?
George Bush was excoriated and ridiculed in the press and on the internet. Barack Obama was villified by different sections of the press and was accused by whackos on the internet of all manner of sins. How did they respond to these critics? They didn't, because they were trying to look presidential and had better things to do, being President of the US. Bush and Obama didn't get it to anywhere near the extent Trump does. Bush and Obama did not engage in boorish, buffoonish, lying, hating behavior the way Trump does
The media (according to them, the world) was "stunned" that he supposedly put a trust in Putin more so than in his own intelligence department. It could have been the wrong thing to say, but it's understandable since at least some of his own intelligence department is corrupt, and out to destroy his presidency. Ever hear of Peter Strzok, or John Brennan? You've been sold a bill of goods by Trump and Fox News.
Check the above short vid, starting at 1:25, and tell me how presidential Obama looked. Here's the YouTube video you linked to, prepositioned right at 1:23 (not 1:25). Looks like a gratuitous attack on a former president by Donald Trump the hater. Obama looked like his normal calm and deliberative self:
Trump, on the other hand, writes angry rants on the internet in response to comedians who mock him and publically denigrates journalists who criticise him. To praise this reaction as measured indicates either a total lack of honesty or a distressing level of self-delusion. He's not a stuffy Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon, he has a personality that many Christians happen to like. Cult of personality is more like it. Everyone will agree with you that Trump isn't stuffy, but neither is he presidential. He's a hate-mongering train wreck.
"Journalists" are demonstrating a hatred that is simply not good for the well being of the U.S. Journalists are merely reporting and reacting to what Trump says. He constantly lies and spreads hate and unprovokedly attacks people and institutions and cozies up to brutal dictators, so that's what journalists report on. If it gets bad enough, such as his performance in Helsinki, then even Fox News reports on it. If Trump would instead demonstrate compassion and an interest in responsible governance (instead of trying to twist the government to serve his personal self interest) then journalists would report on that.
Trump's ethos and "couple of politices" are FAR less antithetical to Christianity than godless socialism of today's Democrat party. You're crazy. There's nothing Christian about Trump. Christians support him because he's a fellow traveler with respect to conservative judgeships and abortion and other Christian causes, not because he in any way resembles a Christian. I would say a fair number of Trump's Christian supporters do not much resemble Christians, either. Faith is a prime example - she's the least loving, compassionate, empathetic person I've ever encountered.
Hyroglyphyx said something about Christianity being linked to nationalism - but Trump's not even a good nationalist. The President of the United States is tweeting anti-American Russian state propaganda! Surely you don't need to be a tie-dyed hippy for that to be a step too far? Who told you that? The fake news media? Quote one of those tweets and we'll discuss it. How about this Trump tweet:
quote: This after Russia meddled in the 2016 election, annexed Crimea, invaded Ukraine, shot down a commercial airliner killing all 298 passengers and crew, allied with brutal dictator Asad in Syria, and assassinated former Russian operatives in the UK with a nerve agent. Trump - making Russia great again!
Should the entire presidency be judged on tweets? We're judging Trump's presidency on two things: What he says and what he does. What he says consists of tweets, occasional responses to reporter questions, occasional interviews, occasional public comments, and what he says at his rallies. It doesn't include press conferences, since there was only the one press conference held shortly after his inauguration a year ago January. What Trump does is a mixed bag. He's been pretty strong on Russia with sanctions, allowing the sending of arms to the Ukraine, and allowing engagement with Russian forces in Syria. He's been incredibly destructive or misguided on other things, such as attacking our democratic institutions, the cruelty of family separations, and the raising of tariffs that are now causing layoffs in the US. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
ringo writes: I think you can. Generally speaking, Americans are idiots or they wouldn't have elected Trump. There are certainly a lot of Americans who aren't idiots but there are enough to make the generalization kinda valid. I'm not really replying so much as using your message as an opportunity to repeat already known information. The electoral college amplifies the votes of rural yokels. (Sorry rural yokels, but that's what you are - we see you at Trump rallies cheering every inane lie. Trump the walking disaster is your guy and you're going to have to own up to responsibility for him.) Wyoming has the lowest state population at .17% of the total US population (for those of you who might miss decimal points, that's .17%, not 17%). Yet Wyoming gets 3 electors in the electoral college of 538 electors, or .56%, which is 3.3 times greater than it's population would suggest it should have. What this means is that small population rural states are way over-represented in the electoral college. While it might seem that elections so close that this matters would be rare, it's happened twice recently. Trump was elected with a minority of the popular vote, so was George W. Bush. The last time it happened before that was 130 years ago. If very close elections are going to be the rule rather than the exception going forward, then a change to the electoral college seems necessary. --Percy
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Chiroptera Inactive Member
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I've been planning on making this point for a while, but it seems that Katrina vanden Heuvel has already written what I planned to do in the latest issue of The Nation.
A stopped clock being right twice a day, Trump did have a point. Russia's current aggressive policies are partly the result of the failure of past US administrations' dealing with the former Soviet Union. The column mentions the mistake of expanding NATO right up to Russia's borders, which most people understood would be a provocation. I would also add the expansion of the US wars in the Middle East, especially into Syria, without taking into consideration that other countries, like Russia, also have interests in the region. And I've felt that the current Russia taking advantage of our dimwitted president isn't too different than the way the US took advantage of the dimwitted Yeltsin. Putin and his regime is partly a creation of the short sighted US policies. Nonetheless, it is also true that Putin is in power and he is a threat and that needs to be dealt with. But I hope that when we finally get a sensible President, that administration's response isn't to restart a Cold War, but more of a detente: an acknowledgment that, threat or no, our two nations (and the world) does have an interest in reducing tensions and some common areas of concern we could be working together on.What do you despise? By this are you truly known. -- Frank Herbert |
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