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Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News (renamed)
JonF
Member
Posts: 5609
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 3571 of 3766 (867274)
11-22-2019 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3568 by Faith
11-22-2019 8:15 PM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
Trump asked for an investigation into Joe Biden and the lunatic conspiracy theory that Ukraine has "Hillary's server" (there were more than 100 servers in the DNC). The fantasy is that somehow that means Ukraine hacked the DNC rather than Russia. Putin desperately wants to get rid of Obama's sanctions for that Interference, so Trump wants it too. Of course you haven't read the transcript.

quote:
President Zelenskyy: Yes you are·absolutely right. Not only 100%, but actually 1000% arid I can tell you the following; I did talk to Angela Merkel and I did meet.with her. I also met
and talked with Macron . and I told them that they are not doing quite as much as they need to be doing·on the issues with the sanctions. They are not enforcing the sanctions. They are not working as much as they should work for Ukraine. It turns out that even though logically, the European Union should be our biggest· partner but technically the United States is a much bigger partner than.the European Union and- I'm very grateful to you for that because the United States is doing quite a· lot for Ukraine. Much more than the European Union especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russia,n Federation. I would also·like to thank you·for.your great support iri the area of defense. . We. are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps. specifically we are almost. ready to buy more Javelins from the United· States for defense purposes ..

The· President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows alot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike ... I guess you have one of your weal thy people... The server, they say Ukraine has.it. There- are a lot. of things that went on, the·:whole situation .. I think you're _surrounding yourse·lf with some of the same people. I . would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to ·get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsetise ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance-, but they. say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, ·it's very important that· you. do it
if that's possible.

...

The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son,. that Eiden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that sowhatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you ·can look into it ... It sounds horrible to me



So as I've often said, "We want arms" "I want you to investigate some bullshit Russian propaganda and one of my political rivals".

Yes, at that point Zelensky knew the aid was held up and Sondland had told him that's the quid pro quo. And, of course, Biden never said anything about stopping any prosecution. The investigation into Hunter Biden was shelved a year before the world called for ousting Viktor Shokin..

“Was there a quid pro quo?...The answer is yes.”

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3568 by Faith, posted 11-22-2019 8:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5609
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 3572 of 3766 (867275)
11-22-2019 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 3569 by xongsmith
11-22-2019 8:43 PM


Re: whistleblower analogy the stupid GOP needs to understand
I clicked on your URL and copied it. It came with a question mark and a bunch of parameters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3569 by xongsmith, posted 11-22-2019 8:43 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1036
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3573 of 3766 (867276)
11-22-2019 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3491 by RAZD
11-18-2019 4:30 PM


Re: Constitutionalism? re Trump's Criminal Behavior pt #2
I've broken this into two parts because they are different issues

In regards to Trump, do his frequent claims that the Constitution allows him to do what he wants meet the smell test?

marc9000 writes:

For those who don't hate him and wish him out of office before his first term is up, yes.

Hate and political leaning has nothing to do with this simple question, and your answer is totally inadequate.

You claim to be an "originalist" and your answer should be based on that position.

Let me ask again ... consider any president, democrat, republican or independent:

Does the US constitution give the president the absolute right to do whatever he wants.

If you are really an "originalist" I would think your answer would be a resounding NO.

Can you explain why you went all wishy-washy and gave Humpty Dumbty Trumpty a pass?

Would you do the same for Obama or Bill Clinton? Somehow I doubt it given your weaseling answer. Your answer doesn't pass the smell test.

My answer is a resounding NO, and it doesn't pass your smell test because I didn't address your false statement. Trump has never said, or implied, that he can "do whatever he wants". What he does is responds to questions about whether he thinks he can do whatever he wants in a certain, defined situation. Like when he's dealing with a foreign leader, or working with classified information. He has a lot of responsibilities and duties under the constitution, and this is a more dangerous time than most of the past, in that Trump has many in a Democrat congress who would freely commit treason to block him from succeeding at something, or to help get him removed from office.

First off, Hunter Biden was investigated and cleared by Ukraine prosecutors in May.

I would prefer that he was investigated by Americans.

Second, that's not the question. It is against Federal campaign law to ask for or receive assistance from a foreign country. Here is Humpty Dumbty Trumpty asking for a political favor from Ukraine.

If only we had an investigation of the phone calls Hillary made in obtaining the Steele Dossier. But you wouldn't be interested, would you?

Third, using his office of President to ask a personal favor in return for US approved aid is abuse of power.

Fourth, there were no other requests regarding corruption, or requests for investigation of any other people,

Humpty Dumbty Trumpty was withholding approved aid to get the Ukraine president to open an investigation into Hunter Biden and Joe Biden.

There were no other requests regarding corruption, or requests for investigation of any other people, and the word corruption does not appear in the phone call memos/transcripts (summaries) for either his first call or his second call (the one where he asks for a favor).
Why was the aid suddenly released after the whistleblower document was released? Because he didn't have the authority to hold it (his lawyers told him).

Why did the Ukraine president cancel an interview with CNN that he had scheduled two days after the document was released? Because the aid came through and the extortion scheme had been exposed.
If he really was "Attempting to discover the truth about possible criminal activity of the son of Joe Biden" then why did the aid suddenly go through and why did the Ukraine president suddenly cancel the scheduled interview?

Why would that change?

This is all trivial, witch hunt stuff. We'll find out how important all this is when the current impeachment stuff is over.

A large part of the reason Trump was elected was to challenge all the "this is how we've always done it" mindset in dealing with foreign countries. He's doing it from his experience as a businessman, not a politician. And of course the answer to that is "he's failed at everything he's ever done!!!!!" But since unemployment is now at a 50 year low, maybe he's finally learned how to do something in his old age.

marc9000 writes:

Nah, he's the president. He should have a few privileges - he does have a lot of things to do, that a large part of the population probably considers more important.

So actually you are just a fake "originalist" and only whine about it when it suits you, not when it really matters.

Well you give yourself a pretty convenient position, since I'm an originalist I have to adhere to a stringent interpretation of the constitution (interpreted by you) and you living constitutionalists can justify bending and shaping the constitution any way you want, "to promote the general welfare"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3491 by RAZD, posted 11-18-2019 4:30 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3594 by RAZD, posted 11-23-2019 4:13 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1036
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3574 of 3766 (867277)
11-22-2019 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3492 by Percy
11-18-2019 9:03 PM


Re: Civil Debate
You're simply wrong. I issued you a challenge to match you one-for-one on insults and attacks and have kept up a steady stream of Trump attacks/insults in a series of posts where you have not replied once. Begin at Message 3461 and follow the posts back. So far you're losing 19-0. Let's give you the Tlaib quote and call it 19-1.

This would be true if all insults were all on the same level. But I consider an MF attack, complete with the sale of t-shirts, to be worth at least 20 or 30 H words or S words. Even when Trump talking about grabbing women by their virginias, he didn't specify any particular virginia. The MF name was specifically designated for Trump.

marc9000 writes:

I don't think Simon and Schuster made those statements...

Those words are at Simon and Schuster's website on their page about the author of The Art of the Deal, Donald J. Trump. Visit that link and you'll see the words you quoted are from Simon and Schuster:

Here was my entire sentence, that you DISHONESTLY chopped in half;

quote:
I don't think Simon and Schuster made those statements based on what they hope will happen, but largely on what has already happened, based on the sales and reviews of Trump's books.

I never denied that Simon and Schuster made those statements. This is similar to RAZD dishonestly attributing my quote about constitutional interpretation to gun control. Why you do that I don't know, it just seems to be a dishonest method of amusing your like minded passersby who aren't closely keeping up with the discussion.

You're both pretty unhinged, and I'm going to disengage for now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3492 by Percy, posted 11-18-2019 9:03 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3578 by Percy, posted 11-23-2019 12:53 AM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1036
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 3575 of 3766 (867278)
11-22-2019 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3496 by Faith
11-19-2019 9:01 PM


Re: More Trump Attack/Insult Tweets
I may leave it to Marc, he usually does a better job than I do on this stuff because he's more knowledgeable about it all. And I have trouble reading all that white stuff so I'll have to transfer it to a better background. I can do that but am not up to it at the moment.

I don't think I'm more knowledgeable, but thanks. I can't believe the way some of your words are blanked out. TDS is really taking its toll around here. But I hope you'll keep at it, I admire your staying power.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3496 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 9:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19076
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 3576 of 3766 (867281)
11-23-2019 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 3554 by Faith
11-22-2019 4:33 PM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
I see you already got three replies and so have probably been corrected three times, but here's another anyway describing how Trump changed his tune as soon as he realized the jig was up.

The story told by the witnesses before the Congressional committee is that Trump through his personal lawyer Giuliani conducted a program of pressure on the Ukraine to publicly announce two things: a) that Ukraine would initiate a search for the secret DNC server that had been spirited away to the Ukraine; and b) that Ukraine would also initiate investigations into Burisma and the Bidens. Trump's pressuring of the Ukraine all took place out of the public eye.

Here are extracts from the July 25th phone call between Trump and Zelensky:

quote:
"I would like you to do us a favor, though...I would like you to find out what happened with...Crowdstrike...The server, they say Ukraine has it...I would like you to get to the bottom of it...There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution...so if you can look into it..."

But on September 9th the House Intelligence Committee was informed of the whistleblower complaint. Knowing this information would soon become public Trump immediately changed his tune, so when Trump spoke with Sondland later that day he conveyed a completely different message. Trump describes what he told Sondland on that September 9th day in this later tweet from November 20th:

And two days after the lid blew off Trump freed up the Ukraine military aid, so Zelensky no longer needed to make the announcement.

But the freeing of the military aid may not be why Zelensky cancelled the announcement. Another chain of logic argues that we don't really know why Zelensky didn't make the announcement, because Zelensky still desperately needed the Oval Office meeting because it would symbolize U.S. support for the Ukraine even more than the military aid.

This possibility is called to our attention by the testimony of Fiona Hill and David Holmes. Zelensky was scheduled to make the announcement on CNN around the same time the whistleblower complaint became known, and even after the aid was freed up there was still a great deal of concern among rank and file in the State Department that Zelensky would still go ahead with the announcement, even though he was cautioned strenuously through diplomatic channels not to get caught up in U.S. domestic politics. Fortunately Zelensky never made the announcement, but we can't really be sure why.

About the server Trump keeps going on about: No such server ever existed or could exist - the DNC servers, just like the RNC servers and the server for this forum, were in the cloud. Websites are not commonly associated with specific webservers (computers configured for serving web content) anymore. For the most part it's just data images on disks that can run on any server in the cloud. Bottom line: there was never any specific "DNC server," and so there can be no DNC server that was spirited off to the Ukraine.

Even a decade ago before cloud serving took over, no one would ever ship out an entire server. They'd just remove the disk drive and ship that.

But these aren't the kinds of things that 90% of the people are going to understand. Understanding that Ukraine is hiding a secret computer is easy to understand, but wrong. Understanding how cloud serving works is complicated and has a vague and nebulous feel to most people, but that the DNC servers were cloud servers is correct.

But even more important than all these details is that Trump has no evidence for any of the diversionary fictions he's making up, except to say things like, "People are saying..." and so forth, which is just more fiction.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3554 by Faith, posted 11-22-2019 4:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3579 by DrJones*, posted 11-23-2019 1:06 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 3581 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2019 5:37 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 3582 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 5:42 AM Percy has responded
 Message 3583 by RAZD, posted 11-23-2019 7:59 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 3577 of 3766 (867282)
11-23-2019 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3565 by JonF
11-22-2019 7:05 PM


Re: whistleblower analogy the stupid GOP needs to understand
I was able to make Message 3563 work using [img] tags. I think Facebook isn't happy if you remove their arguments after the "?", because when I plug that URL into the browser I get the message "Bad URL timestamp". I'm on vacation and so can't verify this right now, but I suspect that when my JavaScript code attempts to validate the image URL that it is getting back the "Bad URL timestamp" message instead of a "valid image" indication.

The "Image Not Found" image is intended to be a more visible version of the standard broken image symbol. I wanted a more visible version because when scanning through old messages with broken images I often wouldn't notice them, and I like to at least make an attempt to find another copy of the image somewhere if I can. The "Image Not Found" version makes broken images much easier to detect.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3565 by JonF, posted 11-22-2019 7:05 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19076
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 3578 of 3766 (867283)
11-23-2019 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 3574 by marc9000
11-22-2019 9:45 PM


Re: Civil Debate
Sorry, Mark, I misinterpreted what you wrote. I thought the "based on what they hope will happen, but largely on what has already happened, based on the sales and reviews of Trump's books" portion was your rationale for why you didn't think Simon and Schuster made those statements. You originally attributed the quote to Amazon, and given your habit of arguing persistently in error I thought you were still arguing that it was Amazon and not Simon and Schuster.

You're both pretty unhinged, and I'm going to disengage for now.

Sorry you feel misunderstood, but I don't think RAZD and I are alone in having difficulty following you. If RAZD and others are like me then they have a great deal of difficulty seeing the connections you obviously think you see between your "facts," the real world, and your conclusions.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3574 by marc9000, posted 11-22-2019 9:45 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2021
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3579 of 3766 (867284)
11-23-2019 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 3576 by Percy
11-23-2019 12:05 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
Understanding that Ukraine is hiding a secret computer is easy to understand, but wrong.

there is also the lie that Crowdstrike is a Ukrainian company owned by a Ukrainian, it's Americian company owned by an American.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3576 by Percy, posted 11-23-2019 12:05 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1921
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 3580 of 3766 (867286)
11-23-2019 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3563 by xongsmith
11-22-2019 6:44 PM


Re: whistleblower analogy the stupid GOP needs to understand
Thank you Admin-Director Percy!

"I'd rather be an American than a Trump Supporter."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3563 by xongsmith, posted 11-22-2019 6:44 PM xongsmith has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15637
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 3581 of 3766 (867287)
11-23-2019 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 3576 by Percy
11-23-2019 12:05 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
quote:
About the server Trump keeps going on about: No such server ever existed or could exist - the DNC servers, just like the RNC servers and the server for this forum, were in the cloud. Websites are not commonly associated with specific webservers (computers configured for serving web content) anymore. For the most part it's just data images on disks that can run on any server in the cloud. Bottom line: there was never any specific "DNC server," and so there can be no DNC server that was spirited off to the Ukraine.

It’s even crazier than that. The idea that the Democrats would damage their own campaign to have an ”insurance policy” against Trump winning is obviously absurd. Especially when there seems to be no idea of how it could work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3576 by Percy, posted 11-23-2019 12:05 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3582 of 3766 (867288)
11-23-2019 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3576 by Percy
11-23-2019 12:05 AM


Re: Democrat **** just keep going and going and going
I can't answer all this stuff so I guess I shouldn't post at all. I know Trump is being honest, not "changing his tune" to accommodate any of the Democrat bullshit, I'm just astonished at how you are all able to ********** simple things to make him out to be some kind of ******** and I can't answer that stuff. Weird how first it was Russian collusion and the sense of certainty about that was manazing, oh any day now Trump is going to go under, then it was obstruction of justice, he's ****** ****** ******, then along came this whistleblower who isn't even qualified to be a whistleblower but is just spy in the white house. Trump should have cleaned out ever last one of the previous administration's staff but he stupidly didn't. Democrat Presdients do but Republicans want to be fair and where does it get them. It gets them spies in the white house and a whole cadre of enemies trying to bring them down accusing them of all kinds of stuff they aren't ****** of. And it doesn't seem to matter what it is, if one accusation falls apart well we'll just set up another one, and we'll just keep making him responsible for the stuff our guys actually did. Hillary committed real obstruction of justice and Russian collusion but we'll ignore all that and accuse Trump of it insteade. Biden committed the real quid pro quo for personal reasons and Trump did no such thing but we'll ***** it on him anyway. What Trump said on phone calls to the Ukraine and what he actually did are all within normal operations for American Presidents but the Democrats twist it into something ********. so amazing, turning the US government into a third world swamp for their own political corrupt reasons.

There are people who can deal with all these shifts and twists but I'm not up to it. You have to go out of your way to get the ***** these days since the inyourface media are all on the Lft, and there is no motivation to do that so you just believe whatever the latest *** is concocted by the Lfftist media and the House Democrats and whoever else doesn't mind destroying the American republic for political gain against a duly elected President. The gullibiligy on the Lfft is astonishing but it's beyond my ability to deal with it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3576 by Percy, posted 11-23-2019 12:05 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3584 by JonF, posted 11-23-2019 9:19 AM Faith has responded
 Message 3598 by Percy, posted 11-23-2019 11:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 3583 of 3766 (867289)
11-23-2019 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 3576 by Percy
11-23-2019 12:05 AM


... btw ...
But even more important than all these details is that Trump has no evidence for any of the diversionary fictions he's making up, except to say things like, "People are saying..." and so forth, which is just more fiction.

Curiously, "People are saying..." is the definition of hearsay.

Just for those following the GOP comedians changing statements.

Didn't you love the scene where Rep "#madcow" Numnuts gives Dr Hill a copy of his purported "intelligence report" that was based on the Russian talking points Ukraine-did-it propaganda ... and Dr Hill tells him what everybody that actually knew it was Russian propaganda knew. SLAM smack-down. He doesn't mention it again.

LOLZ

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 3576 by Percy, posted 11-23-2019 12:05 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5609
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 3584 of 3766 (867291)
11-23-2019 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3582 by Faith
11-23-2019 5:42 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
{snip meaningless rant}

So you've decided to ignore all the evidence. As expected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3582 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 5:42 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3585 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 9:26 AM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3585 of 3766 (867292)
11-23-2019 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 3584 by JonF
11-23-2019 9:19 AM


Re: Democrat **** just keep going and going and going
Of course. Cuz it ain't evidence anyway, it's just the Democrat blather twisting everything true into a lle. Remarkable alchemy. Democrats are really really good at it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3584 by JonF, posted 11-23-2019 9:19 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3587 by JonF, posted 11-23-2019 10:28 AM Faith has responded

  
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