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Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News (formerly In the News)
dwise1
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Posts: 3308
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


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Message 1051 of 1055 (849007)
02-20-2019 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by Percy
02-20-2019 9:46 AM


Re: ...And North Carolina
That's exactly what I was thinking. The only kind of voter fraud that an ID would prevent would be if you tried to pose as somebody else who's registered. That could only work under a few conditions which would make it very difficult to use on a massive enough scale to fix an election.

One of the holes in our election system is that each state has different election laws and procedures. My experience is with how we do it in California, so actual mileage may vary.

In California all registered voters are assigned a polling place to go to. There, they have two computer printouts: one sorts all registered voters belonging to that polling place by street name and number, the other is a log book of registered voters which we sign. You tell them your street name, then they ask for your address number, and then finally your name. If they find you listed, they line out your name and refer you to the next person who has opened the log book to your name where you sign the log book and write in your address.

A third person prints out a receipt with a number which I assume is unique to you, the second person writes that number in the log book next to your name, and you use that number to log into the voting machine. Our voting machines are electronic, at the end they have you verify your selections, and your selections are printed out on paper inside the machine (you can see what it's printing).

Now, that all requires you to have already been registered, so voter ID would do nothing to stop additional unregistered votes to enter the system. In addition, everybody gets marked off when they vote, so there's no voting multiple times. And if somebody had voted posing as you then you come in to vote, then that would immediately raise a red flag, in which case I assume that that unique number in the log book could be used to find and eliminate that false ballot. Or in the case of an impostor trying to vote after you had voted, then the culprit would be exposed on the spot. In either case, I assume that the second person would need to produce some kind of ID.

In the situation that the voter is/should be registered but isn't in the printout, then he fills out a provisional ballot which election officials will verify later to determine whether it is valid. Reasons for needing a provisional ballot can include administrative error, going to the wrong polling place, having been purged from the rolls, or not having an authorized ID (where required). In the states practicing voter suppression, voters are urged (not by the election officials) to fill out a provisional ballot anyway.

There are also other ways to vote. In early voting, you go to a central location, they verify you in their records (no ID required in Calif.), and you vote -- I assume that the polling places' printouts are updated accordingly. There's also absentee ballots that are mailed in or dropped off -- this is actually the most common vector for actual voter fraud as we're seeing in the on-going drama of North Carolina's 9th Congressional District (voter fraud committed by the Republicans -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/...at-happened-north-carolina).

The weak link in our election systems is in voter registration and electoral roll (AKA "voter roll") and that is where reform is really needed. Voter rolls are not always updated when a voter dies, moves to a different precinct, or becomes disenfranchised and that produces discrepancies. Virtually all the figures given by advocates of Voter ID laws are taken from enumerations of those voter roll discrepancies -- basically they make the ludicrous assumption that each discrepancy is a case of voter fraud instead of merely having that potential.

For Voter-ID-preventable voter fraud to work, it needs to be scaled up and highly organized. First, you would need a reliable list of registered voters who are guaranteed to not vote, such as discrepancies in the voter rolls. That would require infiltrating the election offices and most likely enlisting local election officials as your co-conspirators. Then you would need an army of faux voters to pose as those discrepant registered voters. This would be a scheme that Voter ID would stop.

If you cannot make it an inside job, then an alternative could be flooding the rolls with false registrations that you can then . Over half a century ago, I heard stories out of Cook County, Ill, of party machine operatives combing the cemeteries for names to register to vote. Again, you would need an army of faux voters to pose as those discrepant registered voters. This would be another scheme that Voter ID would stop.

Then there was Trump's ridiculous claim that someone could cast multiple votes by going out to the car and putting on a hat and coming back in posing as somebody else. Something like that would be done by some political machines (Tammany Hall comes to mind) would have a guy with a beard vote, then partially shave and vote again, then shave a bit more and vote yet again, until at the end he'd be clean-shaven and had voted half a dozen times. That's probably a common enough story in NYC for Trump to have heard while growing up, it would not work now with our tighter voting procedures -- eg, Tammany Hall didn't have to get around computer printouts of the voting rolls.

I am in agreement that the only purpose of Voter ID laws is voter suppression. And while I believe strongly that we need to do a better job of maintaining voter rolls, the new voter roll purging and "exact match" practices and rules are again nothing but voter suppression.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add 1 blank line between paragraphs to fix tiny flaw in otherwise wonderful formatting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by Percy, posted 02-20-2019 9:46 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1052 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-21-2019 12:03 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3707
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 1052 of 1055 (849012)
02-21-2019 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1051 by dwise1
02-20-2019 4:55 PM


Re: dwise on California procedures, Moose on Minnesota variation
In California all registered voters are assigned a polling place to go to. There, they have two computer printouts: one sorts all registered voters belonging to that polling place by street name and number, the other is a log book of registered voters which we sign. You tell them your street name, then they ask for your address number, and then finally your name. If they find you listed, they line out your name and refer you to the next person who has opened the log book to your name where you sign the log book and write in your address.

Seems to be a pretty good method of voter ID - You need to know your address.

It's been a number of years since I did the voting judge thing in our tiny local precinct - Something like 120 voters is typical. I think Minnesota has also has both of those books, but IIRC, only the second one is normally used in the voting procedure.

A third person prints out a receipt with a number which I assume is unique to you, the second person writes that number in the log book next to your name, and you use that number to log into the voting machine. Our voting machines are electronic, at the end they have you verify your selections, and your selections are printed out on paper inside the machine (you can see what it's printing).

Our local system uses four election judges.

The first is the registration judge - Minnesota has available instant registration at the same time as you vote. To register, the voter must have an ID and some piece of documentation that s/he is a precinct resident (which might also be the ID). An alternative is to have another already registered voter vouch for you, that you are indeed valid to be a voter at the site. The registration judge usually does a lot of sitting around doing nothing.

The second is the person who signs you in in the registered voter roll book, adding you to that book if you are a newly registered. No ID procedure in involved - Just give your name.

The third gives you a (numbered?) little piece of paper that you put into a slotted metal box at the fourth judge.

The fourth judge gives you the paper ballot. At least at our location, there is no electronic voting, although there is a machine available to help you do your ballot.

When you complete your ballot, you fold it and stuff it into another locked slotted box.

Now, that all requires you to have already been registered, so voter ID would do nothing to stop additional unregistered votes to enter the system. In addition, everybody gets marked off when they vote, so there's no voting multiple times. And if somebody had voted posing as you then you come in to vote, then that would immediately raise a red flag, in which case I assume that that unique number in the log book could be used to find and eliminate that false ballot. Or in the case of an impostor trying to vote after you had voted, then the culprit would be exposed on the spot. In either case, I assume that the second person would need to produce some kind of ID.

In Minnesota there is no identification on the ballot that connects to the ID of what voter did that ballot.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1051 by dwise1, posted 02-20-2019 4:55 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1053 of 1055 (849039)
02-22-2019 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by PaulK
02-19-2019 12:19 PM


Re: ...And North Carolina
Reuters reports that there will be a new election.

I’ve heard that the Republican primary will be rerun because the same candidate cheated there, too.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by PaulK, posted 02-19-2019 12:19 PM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1054 by Theodoric, posted 02-22-2019 8:33 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1054 of 1055 (849041)
02-22-2019 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1053 by PaulK
02-22-2019 12:55 AM


Re: ...And North Carolina
Yes, the party of election fraud will get to field a new candidate. I am sure Harris will go back to his sinecure as a wingnut pastor.
quote:
One partisan episode will change the way the new election is conducted: Republicans in November lost their super-majorities in both chambers of the state legislature. In the final weeks of a lame duck term, they passed an election law that would require a new primary to be held in the case of a general election redo.
Cooper vetoed the bill, and Republicans overturned his veto Dec. 27, just days before the end of their veto-proof majority. This means Republicans have a chance to field someone other than Harris, who didn’t say whether he intends to run again...

Former Representative Robert Pittenger, a three-term Republican who lost the 2018 primary to Harris, says he has no interest in participating in a new primary. Dowless was part of Harris’s team for the primary and the general election.



https://www.bloomberg.com/...-election-in-n-c-house-district

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2019 12:55 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 1055 of 1055 (849059)
02-22-2019 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 998 by Faith
02-05-2019 5:15 AM


Re: Your "facts" about Trump's "racism" are the usual innuendo
I came back from Inactive to comment on this. Bye again, I hope forever.

Why bother inactivating your account when you could just not respond for awhile? I don't know why you get so emotionally invested here. It's not that big of a deal. Just take a hiatus


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 998 by Faith, posted 02-05-2019 5:15 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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