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Author | Topic: Should we teach both evolution and religion in school? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Complexity in any engineering area generally requires a complex design. To see a simple organism and knowing what it required for it to "live" would point to more than a "miracle." The following lecture should be of interest to you--if you will even watch it, which I doubt. Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices, by Professor Garrett Odell (online lecture):
Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Both should be mentioned as theories. Although the theory of human evolution is a ridiculous science fiction story, religion was invented by men in their convenience. Education system should be based on true evidence and history. Religion is not a scientific theory, it is a belief--i.e., it is based on dogma and belief, not evidence. The theory of evolution is based on evidence and successful predictions. It explains all the relevant evidence and is not contradicted by any relevant evidence.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Is part of our culture and society to "believe" that we evolve from monkeys. We did not evolve from monkeys. Both the ape line (of which we are a part) and monkey line evolved from a critter that can best be described as an ape-toothed monkey. And this is what the evidence shows--no belief needed.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Coyote, don't worry we did not evolve from any of those animals. If we did, you bet a different one would have evolved too. Not just "us" and definitely not from one day to another, but over millions and millions of years. Sorry, you are wrong once again. I have actually studied the evidence; half my graduate work to the Ph.D. level was in the fields of fossil man and human osteology. (The other half was in anthropology/archaeology.) You are useful for your entertainment value though! I have seen the evidence, and studied it. It shows you are absolutely wrong--but of course being a troll you won't accept any evidence that contradicts your beliefs, no matter how well-documented that evidence is.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
We should begin by rejecting anything creationists tell us, as creationists are 180 anti-science.
So, why should we listen to them at all? They have no evidence, just apologetics.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I posted a nice list of definitions on the other thread in Message 91.
Take a look, you might learn something. Edited by Coyote, : Added linkReligious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I made a comment on the basic English meaning of those words, not necessarily your version or a scientific term. You are treating a scientific subject using generic terms? That's like bringing a pea-shooter to a gun fight. (An apt analogy for creationists.)
I know the scientific terms and how they are used. I was showing that in choosing those terms they have a misnomer if they are going by the plain text. No, those who are choosing the generic terms are either ignorant or deliberately trying to confuse things. (Either fits creationists.)
In school we use the terms in their basic form first, so if the T of E is taught in schools it should come under better terms to describe the horrid thing. No, any time you try to teach science, you have to include the terms as scientists use them. Science has a need for precise terms, and these definitions have been worked out over decades or centuries. We have no need for creationists to try and obfuscate the findings of science by altering the terms to fit their beliefs.
But you all got busy with straightening me out, and labeling me to a lower category, in which case you would not be suitable to comment on what should go on in schools. Right? That's gibberish. Teaching in schools should include accurate information, which it seems you are lacking. I suspect it is deliberate. Creationists who are inherently anti-science really have no business teaching science in schools. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Students should be taught to think critically... You really don't want students to be taught to think critically about religion, as the claims religion makes fare very poorly when they are critically examined.
What you really want students taught is dogma, and I suspect you would only settle for them to be taught your dogma. I would also suspect that you don't want to have students taught the Native American origin story that Eagle was the creator. Or any of those other "pagan" origin stories for that matter. I have found that when creationists promote "critical thinking" they want only evolution criticized, and they want to have it criticized based on their religious beliefs rather than on scientific evidence. On the other hand, creationists will do most anything to avoid having their religious beliefs subjected to critical thinking.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Evolution is science so we teach it in science class. Religion is social studies, so we teach it in social studies class. Comparative religion is social studies, so we teach it in social studies classes. Religious belief and dogma are religion, so they are taught in churches, etc.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
...and leave it up to the students to work out whether it was millions of years or something which happens in our world on a generational basis, and remarkably quickly. Leave it up to students? Hah! What do students know about radiometric dating and all the other techniques for establishing age? * Students need to be told what science has established, whether some fringe groups accept that evidence or not. The evidence shows that the earth is very, very old, not some thousands of years old, so that's what students should be told. * Probably a lot more than creationists!Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I think some things like the age of the earth, don't matter when you have to get up for work Monday morning, and there does not have to be a majority consensus on these issues. A majority consensus of whom? The vast majority of the population doesn't have a clue on these issues and they don't get a say in the first place. They have to rely on scientists--you know, those guys who do have a clue--to figure things out for them. Your problem is that you are taking your beliefs from old tribal myths, rather than what the evidence shows. In this you are far behind the vast majority of the population. In this, it is not so much what you don't know, it is what you do know that is flat-out wrong.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Going by modern standards we might as well dispense with religion altogether. OK. Fair enough. You've been a good sport about all this.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Science is a collection agent for whatever people want to learn, and it is a progressive changing thing to which it is never wise to bow down and begin worshiping as the truth. More accurately, science is a method for gathering and analyzing data, and for learning about the natural world. Scientists never "bow down and begin worshiping as the truth" what science finds. We realize that what science has found is subject to change or improvement as more information comes in and as new or better theories are developed to explain that data. Creationists, on the other hand, are looking for absolute TRVTH, dogma, and unchanging beliefs. Sorry, try down the hall. That's not what science is about at all. And creationists shouldn't try to assume that their way of doing things applies to science as well.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
True, so now if someone disagrees with present science, you can only ever say "you are wrong about current theories" but you can never say you are wrong -period. If someone disagrees with present science, they better have evidence to back up their claims, and not be relying on old tribal myths. Unfortunately, creationists don't do this.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
...just because there was one massive flood There is no evidence for that. Google "channeled scablands." Those floods were three times older than the claimed global flood, but we can see the evidence clearly. The claimed global flood, much larger and much more recent is nowhere to be found.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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