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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4186 of 4246 (880043)
07-28-2020 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 4174 by jar
07-27-2020 3:19 PM


Re: What Makes Christians Ignorant?
jar writes:

What makes so many Christians ignorant is that they were taught not to think; to trust source over content and belief over evidence and fantasy over reality.

You are a Christian.
Was Jesus eternal or was He simply Mary's son? What does the Nicene Creed say? What dis Joe Wood teach you? What does the evidence show?

Do you believe that He died and rose from the dead? Or do you simply believe that only GOD knows, that all of us will eventually do the same thing(with no need to change or be transformed by the renewing of our minds) and that we are all as good as Jesus? You say that evidence is over belief. I am gathering evidence that you represent the name of Christian any more than someone who believes that Jesus lives today in their heart, mind, and everywhere.

God is source. The Spirit is source. Your behavior and my behavior are content. Thus, you do have a point in that idea.I link source and content together just as I try and convince ringo that messenger and message are linked together.

As far as fantasy over reality, the jury is still out and likely wont have a decision to show us personally until after we die.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4174 by jar, posted 07-27-2020 3:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4187 by jar, posted 07-28-2020 11:01 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32724
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 4187 of 4246 (880044)
07-28-2020 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 4186 by Phat
07-28-2020 10:38 AM


Re: What Makes Christians ********?
Phat writes:

Was Jesus eternal or was He simply Mary's son? What does the Nicene Creed say? What dis Joe Wood teach you? What does the evidence show?

You really haven't read the Nicene Creed have you Phat?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18511
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 4188 of 4246 (880046)
07-28-2020 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 4184 by Phat
07-28-2020 10:25 AM


Re: What Makes Christians Ignorant?
Phat writes:

Its not that I ignore what the Bible says. I ignore what you think the Bible says.


Th Bible says what it says, no matter what I think. You aggressively ignore what it says.

Phat writes:

You emphasize a message and not a messenger. I see the two as one.


The Bible doesn't.

Phat writes:

Jesus was and is the Word eternal.


Nope. At best, you're misinterpreting a figurative statement.

Phat writes:

You dont get to have a secular humanist socialist world where humanism reigns and God and His Son dont actually exist.


For any practical purpose, they don't exist - and that's ESPECIALLY demonstrated by many Christians.

Phat writes:

As far as the apologists go, count me as one. Show me my lies.


I have. And I'll continue to do it. Go ahead and try to defend your backwards version of Genesis 3.

Phat writes:

At best, you will showcase my flesh warring against the Spirit.


There you go again, blaming spooks.

Phat writes:

You wont catch me lying about anything.


Been there, done that. One obvious example is you claiming that I was never a believer.

But what has this got to do with Trump?


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4184 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 10:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6326
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 4189 of 4246 (880068)
07-28-2020 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4167 by PaulK
07-27-2020 2:50 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
Hi Paulk,

Paulk writes:

But the police would normally do that job, wouldn’t they?

They do in most of the Cities except where they are not supported by the city officials to uphold law and order.

You do notice that there are just a few cities that are having the problems of rioting. Which are controlled by liberals and have been for the past 30+ years.

But all Federal Buildings have employees that are responsible for the protection of the Federal Building, and see after day to day functions. Most of these buildings is courthouses where business is being carried on every day. They are not vacant buildings.

Paulk writes:

But not enough. Wanting to question somebody

It depends on what state you are in as to what is required of authorities as to detaining a person. In most states a person can be detained for 48hrs, 72hrs, and up to 33 days in some states, without being charged with a crime.

So it might be good to find out where you are and what laws apply to what you are doing or contemplating on doing before participating in any event that could get you detained.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4167 by PaulK, posted 07-27-2020 2:50 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4191 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2020 12:28 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6326
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 4190 of 4246 (880070)
07-29-2020 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 4179 by DrJones*
07-27-2020 7:56 PM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
Hi Dr

Dr Jones writes:

so department of homeland security is not in the constitution, thanks for admitting it.

The last I read the offices of U.S. Marshals and Deputy Marshal were created by the first Congress in the Judiciary Act of 1789, the same legislation that established the Federal judicial system. The Marshals were given extensive authority to support the federal courts within their judicial districts and to carry out all lawful orders issued by judges, Congress, or the president.

Homeland Security was added to this group in the Homeland Security Act of 2002.

The US Marshals that are assigned to the Federal Courthouse in Portland are charged with protecting the buildings they are assigned too. A US Marshal can detain, or arrest you anywhere in the United States. So if a US Marshal was assigned to the Portland Federal Courthouse and observed you throwing a missile and hitting another official he could follow you anywhere in the US and detain you, bringing you back to Portland to that same courthouse for questioning. Opps that is what they did wasn't it?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4179 by DrJones*, posted 07-27-2020 7:56 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4191 of 4246 (880071)
07-29-2020 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 4189 by ICANT
07-28-2020 11:32 PM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
quote:
They do in most of the Cities except where they are not supported by the city officials to uphold law and order.

I think that’s just an excuse.

quote:
You do notice that there are just a few cities that are having the problems of rioting. Which are controlled by liberals and have been for the past 30+ years.

Which means that the inhabitants should be denied their civil rights?

quote:
It depends on what state you are in as to what is required of authorities as to detaining a person

And in every state you can’t arrest someone just because you think they might know something.

quote:
In most states a person can be detained for 48hrs, 72hrs, and up to 33 days in some states, without being charged with a crime.

If they are suspected of a crime. People who aren’t suspects can’t be held.

quote:
So it might be good to find out where you are and what laws apply to what you are doing or contemplating on doing before participating in any event that could get you detained.

Indeed, so you can contest illegal detention.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4189 by ICANT, posted 07-28-2020 11:32 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4196 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2020 8:05 AM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 4232 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2020 11:44 PM PaulK has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2127
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 4192 of 4246 (880072)
07-29-2020 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 4190 by ICANT
07-29-2020 12:16 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
Opps that is what they did wasn't it?

prove it

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1812
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4193 of 4246 (880073)
07-29-2020 12:53 AM


if you actively support planned parenthood, you're not a Catholic nor are you a Christian

can you imagine herod sending mary to planned parenthood.

many will say his name Lord, Lord

and he will say,

depart from me I do not know you

Jim Caviezel Speaks on Abortion

Edited by a servant of Christ, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4194 by Tangle, posted 07-29-2020 1:00 AM proudly roman catholic has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 4194 of 4246 (880074)
07-29-2020 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4193 by proudly roman catholic
07-29-2020 12:53 AM


aSoC writes:

if you supported planned parenthood, you're not a Catholic nor are you a Christian

I see that you're disagreeing with the last few popes and current Catholic doctrine again. How come you get to make the rules on the Catholic Church's behalf?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4193 by proudly roman catholic, posted 07-29-2020 12:53 AM proudly roman catholic has responded

Replies to this message:
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proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1812
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4195 of 4246 (880076)
07-29-2020 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4194 by Tangle
07-29-2020 1:00 AM


go to bed troll

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4194 by Tangle, posted 07-29-2020 1:00 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4196 of 4246 (880079)
07-29-2020 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 4191 by PaulK
07-29-2020 12:28 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
Oh, and look. Right-wing agitators are behind at least some of the violence
BBC

On May 27, not long after the death of George Floyd:

Footage of the man wearing a mask and carrying an umbrella while smashing shop windows went viral online.

And now:

According to the Star Tribune, the man was identified following an email tip-off. The email claimed the man was a member of the Hells Angels biker gang.
An investigation found that the man was also connected to the Aryan Cowboys, a prison biker / street gang. The Anti-Defamation League identifies them as a white supremacist group based primarily in Kentucky and Minnesota.

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6056
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4197 of 4246 (880087)
07-29-2020 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4164 by PaulK
07-27-2020 1:56 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
I thought Federal employers were meant to follow the Constitution.

For fucks sake, the Federal Protective Service's only real job is to protect is to protect federal assets. Every major city in the US has a federal building and many have federal courthouses. Those federal buildings usually house multiple agencies ranging from DHS, FBI, US Marshal's, ATF, ICE, DEA, etc and those federal courthouses hear trials that range from espionage to terrorism and even civil rights violations for police officers who may have violated their qualified immunity. Them staying intact is a matter of national security and its a matter of protecting Constitutional law. There is nothing unconstitutional about it and, in fact, it was originally chartered by none other than George Washington during the first legislative session of Congress.

Graffiti is hardly a major offence that calls for a heavy deployment of additional men, let alone kidnapping people off the streets or tear-gassing peaceful protestors

You mean the "peaceful protesters" barricade federal police officers in a building after intentionally setting it on fire to kill them? Or are you referring to the man who ambushed federal police with a hammer?

The Bill of Rights guarantees the right of the People to redress their government with a list of grievances.... all perfectly fine and Constitutional. But you need to note the careful and deliberate wording of PEACEABLE assembly. Setting people on fire for doing nothing more than protecting the buildings they're chartered to protect is unjustifiable any way you look at it.

You, along with other lefty cohorts, are obfuscating and conflating to muddy the waters -- to blur the lines of distinction between a legitimate protest from a riot. You have no legal ground to stand on. You have no moral ground to stand on. And if a single one of you can explain how any of this is helping the situation I'd love to hear about it and it discuss it.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4198 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2020 12:04 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4198 of 4246 (880090)
07-29-2020 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4197 by Hyroglyphx
07-29-2020 11:03 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
quote:
For fucks sake, the Federal Protective Service's only real job is to protect is to protect federal assets.

I think you’ll find that it is the DHS that is sending agents in.

But “protecting federal assets” does not extend to picking people - people who are not suspected of any crime - off the streets and bundling them into vans without telling them where they are going. But they did that to Mark Pettibone.

quote:
You mean the "peaceful protesters" barricade federal police officers in a building after intentionally setting it on fire to kill them? Or are you referring to the man who ambushed federal police with a hammer?

I mean peaceful protestors of course.

quote:
You, along with other lefty cohorts, are obfuscating and conflating to muddy the waters -- to blur the lines of distinction between a legitimate protest from a riot

Seems that’s exactly what you are trying to do. There are rioters and there are peaceful protestors. And both sorts can get tear gassed, just like people standing peacefully, away from any violence can be intentionally shot with baton rounds.

Really, I am reminded of the homeless man arrested for assaulting a cop’s fist with his face.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4197 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-29-2020 11:03 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4199 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-29-2020 1:02 PM PaulK has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6056
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4199 of 4246 (880096)
07-29-2020 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4198 by PaulK
07-29-2020 12:04 PM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
I think you’ll find that it is the DHS that is sending agents in.

I know that. That's really odd that the Department of Homeland Security is providing security to the homeland.

But “protecting federal assets” does not extend to picking people - people who are not suspected of any crime - off the streets and bundling them into vans without telling them where they are going. But they did that to Mark Pettibone.

To the extent to which the Portland Police Bureau or Seattle Police Department is shackled by mayors and a City Council playing to the crowd, at what point should order be restored? How many liberally-owned or black-owned businesses have been senselessly destroyed because its opportunism at its finest? A legitimate outrage has spilled over into blind rage and indiscriminate violence and if you don't cut it off at the knees it emboldens morons to not only continue the cycle of violence but to ratchet it up.

CHAZ/CHOP was a prime example of what a power vacuum in an actual anarchic society looks like. Might = right... Warlords. Factions. Disorder. The same people that hate borders because its racist erected borders and controlled access through the threat of force. The same people who hate the police became vigilante police mobs. The same people who hate police brutality crushed any dissent with impunity. The same people who said that arms should not be in the hands of ordinary citizens armed themselves and used those weapons. Where is your moral outrage?

The Seattle mayor, playing to her voting base, at first called it a "Summer of Love" until the murders, assaults, sexual assaults, theft, etc became too obvious to deny or allow unabated. She tried to draw parallels to the Hippie Movement with this mob.

You're also not taking into consideration that the federal government did nothing for two months waiting for the violence to die down but never did. Night after night after night the looting, the rioting, the violence continued in places like Portland and Seattle. So this should just go on indefinitely?

Seems that’s exactly what you are trying to do. There are rioters and there are peaceful protestors. And both sorts can get tear gassed, just like people standing peacefully, away from any violence can be intentionally shot with baton rounds.

Yeah, and the actual peaceful protesters are getting tired of people seizing this moment to sow as much chaos and disorder as possible.

In cities that actually did significantly decrease police funding have seen a reciprocal rise of violence. New York, for instance, which enjoyed about 20 years of lowered violent crime is suddenly beginning to relive its violent past from the 70's, 80's and 90's with rates that are soaring.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4198 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2020 12:04 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4201 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2020 1:12 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4200 of 4246 (880097)
07-29-2020 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 4197 by Hyroglyphx
07-29-2020 11:03 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
For further information

Buzzfeed reports Videos Appear to Show Federal Officers Shooting and Macing Reporters and Legal Observers, Despite a Judge’s Order

US District Judge Michael Simon entered a temporary restraining order on July 23 that blocks federal officers from arresting or using physical force against clearly marked journalists and legal observers in Portland. In first-person declarations filed in court on Tuesday, legal observers and reporters described being shot at and maced, and in some instances they provided video footage of the incidents.

And Lawfare blog reports on cases filed against the Federal Government Litigating the Federal Government’s Conduct in Portland Protests

It includes the case mentioned by Buzzfeed and others - I’ll quote two I find especially clear from the information available in the article.

On July 17, Oregon Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum brought suit in the U.S. District Court for the District of Oregon on behalf of the State of Oregon, its agencies and its citizens under the doctrine of parens patriae—a type of standing that allows state attorneys general to litigate on behalf of their state citizens—against DHS, Customs and Border Protection, the Marshals, and Federal Protective Service. The complaint alleged that federal law enforcement officers in military fatigues had been driving around downtown Portland in unmarked vehicles and detaining protestors. It also included specific allegations of the arrest of Mark Pettibone, who was allegedly “confronted by armed men dressed in camouflage who took him off the street, pushed him into a van,” put him into a cell and read his rights but did not tell him why he was arrested or provide him with a lawyer. He was later released with no paperwork, citation or record of the arrest.

On July 22, Perkins Coie and the ACLU of Oregon brought a lawsuit in the District Court of Oregon on behalf of individual protest medics against the City of Portland, DHS, the U.S. Marshals Service and individual officers. The complaint is brought by four protest medics who typically display large red crosses on their clothing and provide medical services to demonstrators, including: “distributing eye wash and eye wipes to protestors in anticipation of tear gas attacks, offering personal protective equipment so that protestors can observe COVID-19 physical distancing protocols, ensuring that protestors remain adequately hydrated and fed, and rendering direct care when police injure protestors.” The plaintiffs allege that officers have intentionally targeted and retaliated against protest medics and injured the individual plaintiffs, including shooting rubber bullets at a medic providing aid to a protester on a bench.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4197 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-29-2020 11:03 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
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