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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 621 of 1444 (843116)
11-13-2018 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by 1.61803
11-13-2018 10:31 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:
Or god is operating at the speed of light and has infinite mass. This would mean time as we know it does not exist for god.
god would be omnipotent and omniscient in a sense and yet choose to remain blinded for reasons humanity may not understand.[
Well that makes no sense to me, nor is it biblical so I'm going to forget that it ever happened. The teaching is tha god created us knowing full well what he was doing, and before watching an unusually hallucinogenic episode of Star Trek.
You call it evil I get that but perhaps that is the price to be paid for our existence. I would rather there be something than nothing otherwise I could not enjoy my buttered sour dough bread.
You might but the child being tortured by a paedophilic psychopath might have a different view. And in any case, you're accepting that god is ok about paedophic psychopaths.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by 1.61803, posted 11-13-2018 10:31 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:18 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 628 by 1.61803, posted 11-13-2018 11:36 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 623 of 1444 (843119)
11-13-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
11-13-2018 10:36 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
Who cares what God could know?
We do. If god know that he's creating suffering and evil, he's evil, if he doesn't then he's not omnicient and therefore not god, and he's then merely reckless as to his actions.
To put it another way, let's personify reality. Reality knows what I will do tomorrow.
Tosh. Reality has no agency.
Does that mean I am incapable of doing otherwise? See how silly it all sounds? We have free will within the parameters of reality. Thus, your argument has no steam in saying that we don't have free will.
Well you've missed my point by a million miles. Re-read what I said. I said that the existence of free will demonstrates that god is evil or reckless or, in fact, not god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:20 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 626 of 1444 (843123)
11-13-2018 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 620 by Phat
11-13-2018 11:01 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence. Why have hope? Wait for the evidence.
What? You mean a weather forecast? Tide tables? Planetary movements? Are you just going to hope that Mars is where you want it to be when you launch your rocket?
Or do you mean that atheists don't hope for a better life for their daughters or catch a 20lb salmon or get that pay rise?
Really Phat, stop projecting, put your prejudices away and start understanding that atheists are fully human too.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 629 of 1444 (843146)
11-13-2018 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by 1.61803
11-13-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:
Painting someone with different views than yours as a torturing pedo sympathizer brush is pretty crappy.
Why "that" would come to mind rather than any other zillions of unsavory things is beyond me and probably says more about your state of mind than mine methinks.
Am I supposed to not notice that you haven't attempted to answer the point being made?
If you missed it, it's nothing new, it's basically why does god inflict/allow suffering on his creation?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by 1.61803, posted 11-13-2018 11:36 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 9:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 631 of 1444 (843188)
11-14-2018 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 630 by 1.61803
11-14-2018 9:03 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:
Im just glad we can have this conversation rather than not exist at all.
That sounds like a false choice to me - no-existence or evil and suffering. The all powerful god is apparently incapable of creating a peaceful creation. Except heaven of course....now there's an idea.
Since things do exist it seems everything affects everything.
The lion is not evil when it consumes a zebra.
And there's another evil - why invent carnivores?
When some mentally deranged person commits a heinous crime against another person it is evil but how can one negate a murderer's free will to kill?
Why on earth would you invent th3 capability/need/ability to start with?
Ether there is free will for evil and good alike or there is none.
Evil may be the price we pay for our freewill. I do not know.
I think you've swallowed the religious hokum. What's wrong with heaven?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 9:03 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 10:17 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 633 of 1444 (843192)
11-14-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 632 by 1.61803
11-14-2018 10:17 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:
It is what it is.
It is what it is because life here evolved that way - competition between species, carnivorousness, pain and suffering all makes perfect sense.
But no loving god would ever create such a thing and nor is it the only creation possible.
I suppose that as well is a unfortunate side effect of having beings with the freedom to do evil stuff.
There is no necessity to have that ability.
If you wind up there you can tell me.
I'm using heaven as an example of a godly creation that doesn't involve evil and suffering. Apparently it's perfectly possible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 10:17 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 11:19 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 635 of 1444 (843194)
11-14-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by Phat
11-14-2018 11:19 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:
Personally, I'll go with the argument that suffering builds character and makes for stronger human prototypes to someday launch out into space.
Why not just build us strong to start with?
(And that's such a terrible Victorian idea - suffering hurts and kills; makes us stronger my arse. And why do we need to be stronger anyway???)
Are you suggesting that a loving God would build a Heaven for us to all dwell in now?
Why not?
(As my loving Father, the homebuilder, built a home for us when I was small?)
Isn't that what a real loving father would do? How come your god isn't as good as your human father?
I say we humans are far too weak and flawed to dwell in such a lavish place.
He bloody made us that way! It makes no sense at all.
Unless of course, God remade us stronger, kinder, and gentler. Some would argue that He is letting us strengthen ourselves. You have mentioned that society is improving...we are becoming more moral...with or without a God or the approval or scrutiny of One.
Of course, some of my religious contemporaries cling to that whole original sin idea...claiming that what we really need is the establishment of Communion with said God. You may argue that it is God Who needs improvement rather than us. Funny argument that. jar always pushed that crap...that human corrected the god character. But as long as we are imagining One, I suppose we can suggest improvements...
A child could imagine improvements on this life. It so obviously isn't the result of a loving and all powerful being that it's laughable.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 11:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 7:38 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 682 of 1444 (846759)
01-11-2019 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 681 by Phat
01-11-2019 11:19 AM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Just for the record Phat, do you actually believe all this stuff about angels in heaven rebelling and god not being able to stop the devil and so on?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 11:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 685 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 4:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 691 of 1444 (846802)
01-11-2019 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 685 by Phat
01-11-2019 4:02 PM


Re: Free Will & A God Who Is Wrong At Times
Phat writes:
Why is God and Jesus so persuasive to me and not as much so for others?
Because you need it more than others. Some people need the security it seems to give them.
It is not wise because I believe that my faith must be tested to be proven genuine.
I wonder who first came up with crap? It's just a device to avoid thinking to carefully about the inevitable conflict between reality and primitive dogma.
In other words, as long as God behaves appropriately in your mind, He is at best worthy of consideration (to exist) but as soon as it is read in scriptures that He is mean, vindictive, obviously a product of human writings, and fallibilities.
You're never, ever going to be able to understand the other side of the argument until and unless you work out how to put aside the enormous raft of religious crap that's corrupting your thinking.
That's not what is being said. I'm trying to get you to see a contradiction. God can't simultaneously behave like a total arsehole and be a loving father. He can't, no matter how much you fall for the rationalisations you've been fed over the years. If this god of yours exists as a minimum he can't be the god of the OT.
I'll grant that our understanding is limited by our fallibilities.
No it isn't, a child could point out how silly that is. It's obviously a purely human construct - people inflicting their own values and failed structures on heaven.
For this reason, a war in Heaven seems like a rationale to a perfect God dealing with imperfection, flaws, strong wills opposed to Him, and other such philosophical head of pin issues.
Does that make any kind of sense to you? It doesn't to me. The concept of a war in heaven is plainly stupid to me and simply a projection. Doesn't it seem to contradict everything you think your god is? The supreme being, the maker of all things seen and unseen etc etc etc? But he can't stop a war in heaven? A war in heaven? Doesn't it seem more like a human concept to you?
I can see your point of view better than you may think.
Phat, you haven't the first clue.
You have simply dismissed any idea of anything unevidenced by science and rationality.
Nope. Not even close. You're not listening. I've seen Ringo say that many times too. What do you think you're missing?
In conclusion, I'm not entirely sure why I cling to belief. It seems it would be easy to let go. But I have subjectively experienced a loving God. Or at least I thought I did. And I won't let that belief go.
You dont make it any easier, however.
Can I suggest that you abandon all attempts to reconcile the utter bollox written in that bloody book and just get on with loving your god? Maybe have a quiet word with GDR. Your relationship is with the thing in your head that you call God not the fiction in the book.
I somehow must either deal with an imperfect God or renounce my belief.
Billions of people do just that and don't seem to have a difficuly with it. It just means not listening to charlatans peddling the rubbish your hearing from people like ICANT.
This sort of thinking also works with those who have no beliefs at all.
You can't speak for those who have no belief at all, you simply don't understand their way of thinking. You have enough trouble understanding yourself; it's probably best to start there.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 685 by Phat, posted 01-11-2019 4:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 715 of 1444 (848592)
02-11-2019 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 713 by Phat
02-11-2019 11:59 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
In the case of God, one could argue that He chooses His group based on their performance in training.
Then he isn't all knowing is he?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 11:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 717 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 4:15 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 720 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 5:35 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 719 of 1444 (848599)
02-11-2019 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 717 by Phat
02-11-2019 4:15 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Only because He allows us the opportunity to choose.
If we can choose without him knowing the outcome beforehand, he's not all knowing. Is he?
We essentially become the decisions we make.
Sure. That's got diddley to do with god though hasn't it?
If some duffer insists that God is a fairytale and that evidence is all that counts in this world, God allows the duffer the opportunity to blow it.
Don't be silly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 4:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 721 of 1444 (848610)
02-12-2019 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 720 by Phat
02-11-2019 5:35 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
The whole argument, silly though it is, is what Tangle can and can not freely do and how much a hypothetical God character could or would know.
And that's why it's silly. The omniiscient god idea is quite plainly a human invention that ties people in knots because it's yet another religious paradox that can't be escaped from.
It's only solved by admitting that omniscience can only exist in a god if he is the epitomy of evil - creating an nasty experiment that results in the torture and death of the creatures he makes for his own sadistic pleasure.
As to what I'd say to your god, well that's also silly, but allowing the conceit for a moment, try this, it's only a minute or so long:
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 720 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 5:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 722 by vimesey, posted 02-12-2019 6:44 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 725 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 10:13 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 723 of 1444 (848616)
02-12-2019 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 722 by vimesey
02-12-2019 6:44 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Yup. Thanks, fixed, I hope.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by vimesey, posted 02-12-2019 6:44 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 724 by vimesey, posted 02-12-2019 8:27 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 728 of 1444 (848629)
02-12-2019 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 725 by Phat
02-12-2019 10:13 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
Of course, the internet has rebuttals to his ostentatious argument.
It doesn't. What it has are a number of excuses for how the world is the way it is. The problem of suffering has never been answered and can't be because it's another paradox. A universally benevolent god would not permit such suffering. By definition.
The book is not all that we have.
Ok, I'm going to contradict myself now - more accurately, I'm going to add to it. The book is not all you have - it's probably not even the most important. We know this to be the case because you all read something different in the book; the book is moderated by your experience and background. Your early learning about the book from your church, parents, school, friends, society etc will affect what you see in the book. This is also why some countries, states, towns see things differently to others. It's cultural.
That's one. But the other thing you have is your personal experience. This revelation thing where something happened that you interpret as God. That, I'm sure, cements the belief in place and without that you'd get much milder form of the disease. It's a bit circular because the more intense the belief the more likely the revelation is likely to happen. Seeing Jesus's face in tea leaves and Faith's rapture for example.
For the record, I thought that Dawkins response was much more rational than was Stephen Fryes
He's answering a different question Phat. But, of course, it's the same ground being trod.
This seems more in line with AZPaul3, who believes that we simply essentially reproduce and die...hence why worry about some magical future when our job is to maximize our present living moment. I can't quite stomach the indifference part of that world view, however. Evolution seems every bit as cruel as any God could be.
There is no god Phat, evolution is just describing the way life is the way it is. Evolution explains why there is suffering; religion can't (unless you accept that god is evil.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 10:13 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 749 of 1444 (848658)
02-12-2019 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Phat
02-12-2019 1:16 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
AllI know is that the Republican Christians have it all wrong.
But, but, but.....ICANT!!!
They think that freedom to acquire unlimited wealth is a birthright.
That's the American dream-lie. It's a cultural belief. Older cultures tend to be more open to the idea that everyone should be able to do well, but not so obnoxiously well that others suffer.
I saw the film VICE last week. Terrifying. You can't leave society to naked Darwinism.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
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