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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


(1)
Message 1737 of 2073 (878679)
07-03-2020 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1736 by vimesey
07-03-2020 2:58 AM


Re: and it was dinos to birds idiot
vimsey writes:
Let’s see if we can list what constitutes evidence for you:
How about two modern evolutionary experiments that show it takes a billion replications for each evolutionary transition (mutation) for adaptation. What does that do for your theory of evolution? Have I missed anything? That is have I missed anything other than you in the reptiles evolve into birds clique can't do math.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1736 by vimesey, posted 07-03-2020 2:58 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1738 by vimesey, posted 07-03-2020 7:51 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1739 of 2073 (878684)
07-03-2020 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1738 by vimesey
07-03-2020 7:51 AM


Re: and it was dinos to birds idiot
vimesey writes:
No need to worry - I may have secured you the recognition you so clearly crave - I’ve given your name to Merriam Webster so that they can refine their definition of hubris.
You English have certainly come a long way since the time your people produced the King James Bible translation and produced scientists like Isaac Newton and Michael Faraday. Now you think that the correct explanation of modern evolutionary experiments is hubris. When did you decide that mathematics should no longer be part of the English educational system?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1738 by vimesey, posted 07-03-2020 7:51 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1741 of 2073 (878704)
07-03-2020 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1740 by ringo
07-03-2020 10:24 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
I never said I read all 78+ million papers on hiv.
ringo writes:
You cited them as support for your work. How could you know whether they agreed or disagreed with you without reading them?
Do you understand the mathematics of quality control? Let's say you are a manufacturer of millions of copies of a part for some kind of machine. And that part has to be within specific tolerances in order for the machine to work. Your customer wants to know if this part will work every time. Testing all of the millions of parts is way too costly so you sample from that pool of parts and do a statistical analysis. That's what I've done with that pool of papers and none have contradicted the math that I've presented. Now, all you have to do is find one paper that proves the math that I've presented is wrong. Start reading.
Kleinman writes:
All I've said is that none of the papers contradict the math that I've presented.
ringo writes:
Again, how could you know that without reading them?
ibid, see above
Kleinman writes:
Either you are too stupid to find a single paper among all those millions of papers that contradicts that math, or the paper doesn't exist.
ringo writes:
On the contrary, you have been unable to cite a single paper among all those millions that supports your math.
Yawn
Combination therapies for combating antimicrobial resistance - PMC
Much has been written about the need for new strategies to combat antimicrobial resistance [1—3]. The object of this perspective is to highlight one such strategy: treating infections with sets of drugs rather than individual drugs. The principle of combination therapies as they relate to drug resistance is straightforward: Imagine that the probabilities of spontaneous resistance to drugs A and B are 1 10‘6 and 1 10‘7, respectively. If spontaneous resistance to drugs A and B are independent events, then the probability of spontaneous resistance to the A+B combination will be the product of the two rates, or 1 10‘13 (for a more in-depth explanation, see [4]).
Why Do Cancer Treatments Stop Working? - NCI
Researchers believe one possible way to overcome or delay the development of resistance is to treat patients with combinations of different drugs.
https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/78/9/2419
In summary, our work demonstrates the potential for different combination therapies to combat resistance evolution in cancer.
Combination therapy - Wikipedia
Conditions treated with combination therapy include tuberculosis, leprosy, cancer, malaria, and HIV/AIDS. One major benefit of combination therapies is that they reduce development of drug resistance since a pathogen or tumor is less likely to have resistance to multiple drugs simultaneously.
Combination Approaches to Combat Multi-Drug Resistant Bacteria - PMC
With the continuing rise in occurrence of drug resistant strains of bacteria, new approaches to combating infections caused by these bacteria are desperately needed, particularly for Gram-negative bacteria. The one drug-one target model has limited viability and combination therapy is the norm in the treatment of many cancers, viral infections such as HIV and tuberculosis treatment. The use of combination therapy, or other drug cocktails such as antibiotic/adjuvant combinations for the treatment of other MDR bacterial infections is an attractive alternative to the development of new antibiotics, which has been demonstrated to almost invariably lead to the emergence of resistance following a short time in the clinic.
How many papers do you want me to cite? Now get off your lazy butt and find a single paper that contradicts the math that I've presented.
Kleinman writes:
If you read the paper I linked to, I developed the math based on a failure of two-drug therapy for treating malaria.
ringo writes:
I'm not interested in other people's failures. I'm asking about your successes - actual clinical studies that show your method working better - i.e. curing more patients - than the other methods. If there were any, I should think you'd know about them. So why can't you cite any?
What is with you people in the fish evolves to mammals clique? Is your reading list limited to fossil tea-leaf reading journals and Mad magazine? You are so ignorant of the real examples of evolution, it is pathetic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1740 by ringo, posted 07-03-2020 10:24 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1742 by ringo, posted 07-03-2020 3:49 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1743 of 2073 (878727)
07-03-2020 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1742 by ringo
07-03-2020 3:49 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
Testing all of the millions of parts is way too costly so you sample from that pool of parts and do a statistical analysis. That's what I've done with that pool of papers and none have contradicted the math that I've presented.
ringo writes:
You're not listening.
You are not thinking.
Kleinman writes:
How many papers do you want me to cite?
ringo writes:
I want you to cite papers with actual medical results, not "one possible way" or "potential". Actual. Results that happened, past tense. Medical results.
So you think that combination therapy doesn't demonstrate actual medical results for hiv, cancer, tb, leprosy, malaria,... You need to expand your reading list beyond fossil tea-leaf reading journals and Mad magazine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1742 by ringo, posted 07-03-2020 3:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1744 by ringo, posted 07-03-2020 4:18 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1745 of 2073 (878729)
07-03-2020 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1744 by ringo
07-03-2020 4:18 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
So you think that combination therapy doesn't demonstrate actual medical results for hiv, cancer, tb, leprosy, malaria,...
ringo writes:
Math does not demonstrate medicine. Only medicine demonstrates medicine.
And it's becoming pretty clear that you don't have any medical results to back up your claim.
whatever

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1744 by ringo, posted 07-03-2020 4:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1748 by ringo, posted 07-03-2020 9:00 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1749 of 2073 (878743)
07-03-2020 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1748 by ringo
07-03-2020 9:00 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
whatever
ringo writes:
You could have run away a long time ago and saved us all a lot of time.
Is that what you think "whatever" means? Look it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1748 by ringo, posted 07-03-2020 9:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1753 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2020 3:45 AM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 1758 by ringo, posted 07-04-2020 9:44 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1755 of 2073 (878762)
07-04-2020 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1754 by Straggler
07-04-2020 3:49 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Straggler writes:
Good grief. You are still here. Why are you wasting your time with a bunch of amateurs so obviously and clearly beneath you? Rather than focussing on persuading the Nobel prize committee of your genius? The man that overthrew evolutionary biology. The Newton/Darwin/Einstein/Pythagoras of our time.
It’s almost as if you were a crank......
I could ask you the same thing. The reason Newton/Darwin/Einstein/Pythagoras are remembered is that they gave a correct explanation of physics/biology/geometry. What Darwin didn't do is correctly quantify his theory but he did recognize qualitatively the two fundamental processes of evolution, competition (what Darwin called the struggle for existence), and adaptation. Does anyone remember the most important flat-earther of all time? Because that will be like remembering the most famous fish evolves into mammals clique member.
Straggler writes:
You can start by explaining the discovery of the example already cited.
Tiktaalik
What is especially cool about Tiktaalik is that the researchers, Edward B. Daeschler, Neil H. Shubin and Farish A. Jenkins, predicted that they would discover something like Tiktaalik. These paleontologists made the prediction that such a transitional form must exist in order to bridge the gap between fish and amphibians. Even more, they predicted that such a species should exist in the late Devonian period, about 375 million years ago.
So they spent several years digging through the earth on Ellesmere Island in Northern Canada, because geological and paleontological evidence suggested that exposed strata there was from the late Devonian. They predicted that, according to evolutionary theory, at this time in history a creature should have existed that was morphologically transitional between fish and amphibians. They found Tiktaalik - a fishopod, beautifully transitional between fish and amphibians.
Straggler writes:
Verification through prediction leading to discovery.
When was the last time creationism resulted in the prediction and subsequent discovery of anything at all........?
Do you think that finding a fossil of an aquatic animal (or some land animal that died and ended up) in river sediment is some startling discovery as unusual a specimen it might be? What exactly does this fossil tell you about the physics and mathematics of evolution? Zero, nothing, zilch, nada. If you want to understand the physics and mathematics of evolution, you have to consider real, measurable, and repeatable empirical examples of the process. And not Tiktaalik, not Australopithecus, not archidumbtrex, tell you anything about the physics and mathematics of evolution. Why can't you explain anything about DNA evolution with fossils? The reason is you can't describe what is going on at the molecular level with gross anatomy. That's like trying to explain quantum mechanics with classical physics. If you want to know how many replications it takes to make a transitional step in a DNA evolutionary process, you have to study and understand evolutionary experiments such as the Kishony and Lenski experiments. And these experiments show that each transitional step (mutation) takes about a billion replications. So, if Tiktaalik is some kind of transitional form to a tetrapod, you should have vast numbers of these fossils in your riverbed and that just for a single mutational transitional step.
So, where does that leave you? It leaves you with the argument that the DNA evolution of bacteria somehow works differently than more complex replicators. Try recombination. Taq has. Of course, Taq doesn't understand the mathematics of recombination. Try some kind of lateral gene transfer. Maybe Tiktaalik caugth a viral infection that gave it the coding and regulatory genes to produce limbs. That sounds like the kind of thing you should teach to naive school children so that they will understand the physics and mathematics of evolution. These children will be totally prepared to deal with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. Maybe you fossil tea-leaf readers and you in the fish evolves into mammals clique think this is wise to teach to children. I think you are introducing insanity into our educational system and it is showing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1754 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2020 3:49 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1756 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2020 6:58 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1767 by Trump won, posted 07-05-2020 12:38 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1757 of 2073 (878771)
07-04-2020 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1756 by Straggler
07-04-2020 6:58 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
So, where does that leave you?
Straggler writes:
It leaves you utterly unable to explain the vast plethora of evidence that evolution occurred. It leaves you in direct contradiction of the fossil record, geology and genetic evidence of common descent including (as you are into mathematical modelling) molecular and computational phylogenetics.
If you want to supercede all of that you are going to need something more than dismissing it all as the fish turn into mammals clique.
If you feel compelled to explain some plethora with silly mythology to naive children, please don't. It's much more important for naive school children to learn the mathematical and physical facts of life of how evolution works. After all, if you don't think that drug-resistance is getting worse, you have lost contact with reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1756 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2020 6:58 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1775 by Straggler, posted 07-06-2020 10:52 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1759 of 2073 (878778)
07-04-2020 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1758 by ringo
07-04-2020 9:44 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
Is that what you think "whatever" means?
ringo writes:
"Whatever" means that you have nothing substantive to say. In this specific instance it means that you can't back up your claim about your math having any medical value. If you could, you should have presented your evidence long ago.
"Whatever" means your reading list is limited to fossil tea-leaf reading journals and Mad magazine. You and the rest of your fish evolve into mammals clique really need to expand your whatever reading list to include some scientific papers. Those are the papers that explain the physics and mathematics of evolution.
Edited by Kleinman, : Typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1758 by ringo, posted 07-04-2020 9:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1765 by ringo, posted 07-04-2020 8:57 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1766 of 2073 (878807)
07-04-2020 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1765 by ringo
07-04-2020 8:57 PM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
Those are the papers that explain the physics and mathematics of evolution.
Ringo writes:
I've given you ample opportunities to present ANY papers that support your position in the REAL world - i.e. with actual medical results. You clearly don't have any.
whatever. And if you have trouble with the meaning of that word, look it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1765 by ringo, posted 07-04-2020 8:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1769 by ringo, posted 07-05-2020 9:26 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1771 of 2073 (878821)
07-05-2020 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1769 by ringo
07-05-2020 9:26 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Kleinman writes:
whatever. And if you have trouble with the meaning of that word, look it up.
ringo writes:
Okay:
"said as a response indicating a reluctance to discuss something, implying indifference, skepticism, or exasperation."
ringo writes:
That's what I said. It indicates you running away.
[shakes head]Can you really be as stupid as you pretend to be?
That's one of the meanings, words can be ambiguous. You should try mathematics but your problem is that you aren't pretending.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1769 by ringo, posted 07-05-2020 9:26 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1772 by ringo, posted 07-05-2020 12:33 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1776 of 2073 (878884)
07-06-2020 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1775 by Straggler
07-06-2020 10:52 AM


Re: If We Throw The ToE Away, What Will Replace It?
Straggler writes:
But your blinkered focus on drug resistance stops you from looking at how evolution has actually occurred. Species exist. That is a fact. According to your theory there is no common descent so each species must have originated independently.
You don't see it because you only have one eye. The Kishony experiment based on antimicrobial drug-resistance is not the only well-measured example of DNA evolution. You also have the well-measured Lenski experiment that uses starvation as the selection pressure and DNA evolution works the same way in that experiment. The empirical evidence that eukaryotic DNA evolution also works the same way is now becoming more available. But if you have a rational argument that DNA evolution works differently for different selection conditions, you should make that argument now. You won't. With respect to the notion of common descent, some simple replicator in the primordial soup + time = a Straggler, forget it. You can't even explain all the genetic differences between humans and chimps in a million generations (10,000,000 years and 10 years/generation). The accounting rules for DNA evolution don't even close to balancing the books on that one.
Straggler writes:
How does that work?
I'm showing you how DNA evolution works and the way that biologists and population geneticists use this math to do their DNA phylogenetics is totally wrong. The way they use it, you could find some homologous piece of DNA from a banana and show that you are closely related.
Straggler writes:
Do you accept geology? And astronomy? Do you accept that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old?
I took a college course in geology many years ago and never studied astronomy but if their work is anything like what biologists have done with the subject of evolution, I wouldn't take anything they say at face value.
Straggler writes:
Your relentless focus on the minutiae of drug resistance doesn’t provide any context or answers to the big scientific questions. It’s a special case extrapolation gone mad.
I'm old enough to remember that the evolution of drug-resistance was a major supporting argument for the theory of evolution. All I have done is run the numbers and it is not me that has done the extrapolation gone mad. All I have done is put the variables mutation rate and the number of replications in the correct mathematical context. When you do, it becomes readily apparent why it takes a billion replications for each evolutionary transition step. And it doesn't matter what the selection pressure is. Check out the Lenski experiment which uses starvation as the selection pressure and the same math applies. You should check it out yourself and try to find any empirical example which contradicts this math. You won't find one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1775 by Straggler, posted 07-06-2020 10:52 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1778 of 2073 (878894)
07-06-2020 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1777 by Trump won
07-06-2020 6:10 PM


a servant of Christ writes:
public schools are harmful, draconian places where creative and critical thought is actively discouraged.
a more accurate term for public school is holding container for humanity's future.
evolution nor intelligent design should be taught in these ghettos of thought, controlled by rapacious administrators and teachers unions that suck every last dime from their populace.
public school is not a place of learning. evolution and intelligent design do not receive the vital nuance they deserve in their instruction.
Public schools haven't always been like this and be careful, churches can be like this as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1777 by Trump won, posted 07-06-2020 6:10 PM Trump won has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1788 of 2073 (878917)
07-07-2020 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1784 by PaulK
07-07-2020 2:39 AM


a servant of Christ writes:
macroevolution is a fairy tale
PaulK writes:
You say that, but there is strong evidence that says that it happened - and there are Young Earth Creationists who argue that it did happen - and even quicker than scientists would say.
You can't even explain microevolution correctly. None in your fish evolves to mammals clique can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1784 by PaulK, posted 07-07-2020 2:39 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


(1)
Message 1791 of 2073 (878923)
07-07-2020 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1790 by vimesey
07-07-2020 7:27 AM


vimesey writes:
Nope. If your god is omnipotent and good, he has the power to change things (or indeed set them up in the first place) so that innocent children don’t suffer.
If he doesn’t, then either he is not omnipotent, or he is not good.
So you think you have the ability to tell what is good and evil? You can't even do a simple math problem which if you did explains how drug-resistance evolves. That would prevent much suffering and many deaths from drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments.
If you want to learn something about the subject of good and evil, read the story about Joseph in the book of Genesis. Toward the end of the story, Joseph says this to his brothers (Genesis 50:20), "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." Read that story and learn something about redemption and reconciliation and how God brings about good from evil.
If you want a modern example of this kind of story, read about Desmond Doss and his actions during World War 2 and the battle in Okinawa. I think you have no idea what good and evil is and God to you is nothing more than a genie in a bottle that must do your will. Well, you have been successful in getting the Bible out of public schools and we now have a couple of generations of children that don't understand these principles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1790 by vimesey, posted 07-07-2020 7:27 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1792 by ringo, posted 07-07-2020 9:28 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1793 by vimesey, posted 07-07-2020 9:51 AM Kleinman has replied

  
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