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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
The PEOPLE were to be the militia and the militia was to be available to defend the country. That's why the phrase about conscientious objectors was included. Okay so far.
quote: That's one historian's opinion. An opinion which conflicts with the text of the constitution. For example: Article 1, Section 8, Subsection (16)
quote: Pretty clear and explicit. The power to organized a Militia, appoint officer's, and train the militia is reserved to the states. The states exert this power through State Guards, State Military Reserves, State Militias or State Defense Forces. There is no provision in the constitution for you to organize your own militia.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
My replies were to Dr. A. Your argument doesn't matter. Even those replies which refer to me in the first person and Dr. Adequate in the third person? Nope.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
As William Bennet said on Radio, at risk of getting fired," to kill the remaining 1.5 million bastards, as they were once called, is NOT an acceptable solution." But between U and me, the Liberals and Obama are using Planned UNparenthood to do just that Reminder to self. Think twice before you call somebody a wing-nut again. Once you've rated a right winger a 10, it may be impossible to grade true paranoia.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I accept your apology for saying things that you knew weren't true. You simply cannot resist calling someone a liar, can you?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It's a very persuasive accumulation of EVIDENCE that should give context to the amendment that we are not normally aware of. Speak for yourself. I have studied the history behind the first and second amendments. This is not unfamiliar ground to me. In any event, the article you cited is a law review article. I note that Vandercoy provides no explanation whatsoever of the rewording by the Senate of the 2nd amendment into its current form. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The duties set for the Militia in the constitution are presently being performed by the National Guard, and there is no other body that does this, ergo the National Guard is de facto the Militia as envisaged by the founders. The states can set up state militia units that are not the National Guard, apparently some states have done so. The constitution does reserve the power to create, train, and regulate militias to the States. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The Second Amendment preserves an individual right to keep and bear arms and enjoins the government from broadly disarming the general populace. That's been supported by 200 years of jurisprudence. I can agree with that statement, but the scope of the individual right has not been uniformly supported by the jurisprudence over the past 200 years. The current near severance of the individual right to bear arms from the purpose of maintaining a militia simply did not exist in the 20th century. It certainly was less than clear that there were limitations on state attempts to control guns. DC v Heller and forward are substantially different from prior decisions such as US v. Miller and Lewis v. United States. In fact, prior to DC v Heller essentially all federal legislation limiting guns was held to be constitutional. I am not familiar with any cases dealing with incorporation of the second amendment to apply to the states. ABE: By cases dealing with incorporation, I mean cases prior to McDonald v. Chicago (2010). My point is that current jurisprudence is pretty new. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Hmmm...I don't seem to recall Alabama Governor George Wallace calling out the National Guard during the Civil Rights demonstrations. Seems they were called out by Washington, D.C.? The constitution makes the president the Commander-in-Chief of the state militia. The governor can call on the guard for order keeping purposes and to help during natural disasters, but the governor cannot use the guard to defy the president.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The founders believed many things that feel strange to modern minds, such as that some people were actually only 3/5 of a person and that women shouldn't vote. The glib response would be that the process of getting rid of the 3/5 compromise required a civil war. I also note that the process of amending the constitution to provide equal rights to women was a 50+ year effort that ultimately failed. In this case, the prospect of getting 38 states to sign onto a constitution amendment that markedly reduces the number of guns in the population would seem to have a vanishingly small chance for success. But yes it is possible to amend the constitution.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It says that the state has the power to do those things, but it does not limit the militia to being powered by the state. Not quite correct, CS. The power to train, organize, etc. a constitutional 'Militia' is reserved to the states in Article I of the constitution. Yes, there can be other groups of citizens with guns, and they can call themselves a militia, or the minutemen, or the Klan if they want. But those are not the groups referered to as 'the Militia' in the constitution. The 2nd amendment does not create a Militia. The provisions for that are in the body of the constitution.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Now all you have to do is show how stopping a civilian from having a rapid-fire gun promotes the general Welfare. That wouldn't be enough. The 2nd amendment expresses a limitation on Congressional power. So until the 2nd amendment is out of the way, there is no need to look to the Commerce Clause or the General Welfare Clause. But absent the 2nd amendment, I think limitations on the fire rate and capacity are no brainers. Congressional action would be judged on a very liberal 'rational basis' which essential never results in a statute being overturned.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I gather it's a conservative paper but these are Government statistics and I see no reason to doubt them, or if I have to doubt them I'm going to doubt the statistics on the other side more. Thanks for that peek into your thought processes work. As I read it I could almost hear the cogs grinding. But at least I'm warned not to expect to use evidence to convince you of anything. One thing to consider when looking at statistics that are vaguely labelled as 'gun crime' or 'firearm offenses' is that when guns are outlawed, gun possession alone becomes a 'gun crime'. The fact that the UK police are busting people with guns and taking the guns and the thugs off of the streets doesn't disturb me all that much, so I'd want to see some kind of breakdown into what this 89 percent increase means.
quote: I note that the statement does not say that police are unable to combat increased gang-related crime, just that the statistic itself will generate fear. Doesn't that wording seem even the least bit questionable to you? Yesterday I was listening to an interview with a former police commissioner of Baltimore who was explaining how he was able to reduce gun violence (meaning actually use of firearms as opposed to fire arm offenses) by focusing on arresting thugs for gun offenses as opposed to focusing on drug busts. (I didn't catch his name, but a quick search tells me that the former commish was Frederick H. Bealfield.) Bealfield described how in a year before his crackdown the department made over 100,000 adult arrests in a city of about 600,000 people. Yet by changing the focus to gun arrests, he was able to knock down gun crime involving real gun play (murders, etc.) while making less than half of the number of arrests. So despite the fact that 'gun crime' statistics actually went up during that time in Baltimare, the actual incidence of people being threatened and hurt by guns went was way done. Bealfield also made the point that before his changes police were bragging about taking 4000 guns off of the street on an annual basis when there were 30,000 new guns being sold in the city.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
removed
Edited by NoNukes, : No need to dogpile.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It is orders of magnitude easier to produce drugs than it is to manufacture firearms and ammunition. This may not be true for very much longer. There are lots of efforts going on here to produce guns using 3D printer technology. The 3D-printed gun: When is high-tech too hot to handle? - ExtremeTechUnder a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I for one think the way free speech is handled in this country is a down-right disgusting slap in the face to all the people who fought and died to free the fledgling colonies from their British king. I think in your zeal, you have not done justice to the history of the first amendment. At the time of its passing the first amendment was a rather weak and ineffectual bit of protection. It's true that free speech is not correctly protected today, but the first amendment is much stronger and is treated with much more respect now than it was at its time of adoption. For example, many provisions of the Sedition Act of 1798 would be found unquestionably be found unconstitutional today. Further, the first amendment had zero weight against state action at the time of its adoption. Slave states routinely censored anti-slavery books and pamphlets in the 18th and 19th century. If anything, I think people from the late 18th century would be quite appalled at much of what is considered protected speech these days. They might indeed be taken aback by the shredding of the fourth amendment, but most likely they would think that our approach to the first amendment was incredibly naive.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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