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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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How can you remove peoples' capacity to administer lethal force without eliminating their ability to defend themselves?
Is lethal force the only form of self defence?
No. The issue you're failing to realize is that all modes of defending yourself have the capacity to be lethal. That's why if you remove the capacity to be lethal, then you remove all modes of defending yourself.
Utter rubbish. why do you think that without a gun, a person is completely defenceless?Why do you think that lethal force is the only defence? In a physical conflict, the best defence of all is to get your self out of the dangerzone, i.e. run away= not lethal. I agree that removing a gun does not remove the capacity to be lethal, but it does remove the possibility that a momentary, instantaneous (bad) judgement could result in the death of someone who does not deserve to die. That's why if you remove the capacity to be lethal, then you remove all modes of defending yourself.
bollocks. Defence does not = lethal force, and lethal force is not the only defence.
For the third time: I don't think anyone deserves to die for committing any crime.
Then why do you support making it easy for people to be killed as a result of bad judgement while committing a relatively minor crime?
The right to use lethal force to defend yourself is already written into law.
If there is an imminent threat/danger to your life. but if you catch someone stealing your DVD player can you shoot them in the back as they run away? is that self defence?
People aren't being armed, they are arming themselves.
sigh... ok, "allowing people to arm themselves"
And you're just assuming the judgement was bad
Well shooting someone dead for burglary, seems to me to be bad judgement.Shooting someone dead for shoplifting seems to me to be bad judgement. Shooting someone dead for carjacking seems to me to be bad judgement
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Why?... And remember, the goal when you shoot someone is not to kill them but to stop a behavior.
Clearly in the homicide cases CS listed earlier (to which my posts are referring) this "goal" of non-lethal behaviour change was not achieved. Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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Running away is not self-defense. Its retreating.
In the sense of preventing (further) bodily harm to yourself? It is a form of defence.Lesson 1 in any martial arts "self defence" class will tell you this. Okay, well that's not what you've been saying so far.
Okay, well you've not been reading my posts. My whole argument here has been about trying to ascertain whether you think someone deserves to die for, e.g. committing burglary, and whether or not you think the the general public are best equipped to act as judge, jury and executioner, and administer that punishment. Possession of a gun allows for a split second decision or reflex to result in the immediate death of someone. a fist or a frying pan? not so much.(or are you saying that a fist is as lethal as a gun?) Depends on where you are and what the local laws are.
Do YOU consider it to be self defence, do you consider it to be a reasonable course of action to safeguard your DVD player?
What you are doing is glancing over all of the most dangerous elements of a crime to strip it down to the least threatening description possible so that you can make the resulting action look as bad as possible. That's not an honest assessment, that's a biased smear ... If someone robs a store with a gun and the clerk shoots them, then they didn't get shot for just "burglary". They assaulted a person with a deadly weapon and that person defended themself.
What you are doing is assuming that every crime committed presents an immediate danger to the victim's life, and is only defensible by lethal force. You provided the original list of gun deaths, you tell me.If "Burglary" is listed as the reason for the shooting, I assume"Burglary" was the crime being commited. If "Assault" was listed as the reason for the shouting, I assume the crime being committed was "Assault". If I come downstairs and catch someone stealing my DVD player, is the correct/reasonable action to blow his brains out?because by arming....no...*sigh*.. allowing people to arm themselves with guns... you are allowing a situation where every startled victim of crime has the power to instantly without thought or reflection blow someone elses brains out. The list of gun deaths YOU provided shows this in action.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Is running away the only form of "self-defense" that you can think of that does not have the capacity to be lethal?
it's not about "capacity", it's about ease, speed and the possibility of accidental death.With a firearm it is easy for an average joe, untrained and startled to make a bad judgement and kill someone. It's not so easy to "accidentally" beat someone to death. For the fourth time now, I don't think anyone deserves to die for committing any crime.
So why do you want to allow every citizen to be armed? you must see that this ends in death? (30,000-ish per year i think from some statistics presented in this thread).That's like saying: "I do not believe in personal point to point transportation for the masses" ...and then insisting that everyone should have a car. Ridiculous. Self-defense is not administering a punishment..
Call it what you will, semantics, the end result is death, in many cases for a minor crime, or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
And in a situation where you need to defend yourself, you are the only one there who can act as judge and jury
This is key... Do you think that everyone has the skills and the level head to make a correct decision in this case? to make their actions proportionate to the "need"?I do not. No, just the crimes where the perpetrator has a deadly weapon.
by your logic, anyone with functioning limbs has a deadly weapon, so that would mean every crime?
I didn't look at the details of each one, it was a large cut n paste. Which one are you referring to as the "burglary"?
maybe you should read what you post?from your list: quote: Yes, people have a fundamental right to self-defense.
how can you reconcile this with:
For the fourth time now, I don't think anyone deserves to die for committing any crime.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
quote:So you advocate gun control? why are we arguing? quote:A crime that the burglar deserves to die for? quote:And you have admitted that you don't think the average Joe is equipped to make the right decision in such a case, but yet, you defend (or at least appear to be defending their right) to arm themselves? weird. That's a pretty bad example of "shooting someone dead for burglary". Fair enough, I understood your list to be homicides, but a cursory seach will throw up countless examples of burglars being shot dead.But by your own admission, quote:So, in this case no one was killed, but the next guy? and the next? will they be able to fire that warning shot over the head or will the cock up and blow someone's brains out? You have some massive conflicts here:On the one hand - You believe everyone has the right to self defense, - You believe removing the capacity for lethal force "eliminates" a persons ability to defend themselves - You believe in the right to bear arms of US (world?) citizens however- You do not believe the average person has the ability to make a sound judgement about how and when to use a firearm - You do not believe that death is a suitable punishment for any crime So, you want to give people who are not equipped to judge, a firearm and hence the ability to instantaneously kill someone with the twitch of a finger, while also believing that no one should die for any crime... Edited by Heathen, : No reason given. Edited by Heathen, : No reason given. Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
I don't think anyone deserves to die for any crime
so you don't need a gun to shoot at burglars then.
I'd rather error on the side of the victim though,
The victim is often the person shot dead when mistaken for an intruder, for being in the wrong neighbourhood at the wrong time, for being a child who picks up a parent's gun, for being in the cinema/office/classroom when a nutball goes postal.less guns = less gun deaths. Excuse me? Why are you trying so hard to defend people who are breaking into other peoples' houses?
You mean people who are suspected of breaking into other peoples houses?well, because I believe in due process, I believe that everyone has the right to be tried in a court of law, and not have their brains summarily blown out by a frightened gun toting idiot. Edited by Admin, : Fix underlining.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
I've talked about needing a gun exactly zero time in our discussion.
So a gun isn't necessary for self defence? I agree.
You just changed the subject. We were talking about someone breaking into someone else's home.
We were talking about a whole range of crimes, (which you presented) where use of a firearm was involved as a"self defence" measure. I have been consistently questioning the ability of people to judge when appropriate force was required.. this is entirely the subject.
No, I mean someone who has broken into someone else's home.
So, you don't think a court should decide if a crime has been commited?
As I thought, you don't think that people have the right to defend themselves. That's terrible.
Bollocks. stop misrepresenting me. You equate due process and the principal of innocent until proven guilty with taking away peoples right to defend themselves? bizarre.I don't think that anyone should get to act as Judge, jury and executioner in an fear fueled moment.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Ok.. you are utterly twisting and misrepresenting everything i say,
I barely have time to look at this every few days, and have no interest in going round and round while you are clearly reading something other that what is written.If you truely believe that I am condoning the crime at the expense of the victim you have some very basic reading comprehension issues. I'll leave you to it.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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You don't need a court to tell you that someone who has broken into your house has committed a crime.
if someone has broken into a house then we know, beyond suspicion, that they have committed a crime.
really? are you sure?A 5 minute google search gives us this: Connecticut man kills suspected burglar, then learns it's his teenage sonhttp://usnews.nbcnews.com/...then-learns-its-his-teenage-son Father Shoots And Kills 14-Year-Old Daughter, Saying He Mistook Her For Burglarhttp://thinkprogress.org/...-daughter-saying-mistook-burglar Stepdad who shot teen girl is decorated Fort Carson officerhttp://gazette.com/...ed-fort-carson-officer/article/1511573 Wandering man with Alzheimer’s disease mistaken for a burglar, shot and killed Wandering man with Alzheimer’s disease mistaken for a burglar, shot and killed — New York Daily News Polk mom mistakes daughter for boyfriend, shoots and kills herPolice: Polk mom mistakes daughter for boyfriend, shoots and kills her Woman shot dead after traffic accident as she tries to get helpDetroit Free Press High school track star shot and killed after jumping out of closet in prank gone horribly wrong: fatherHigh school track star shot and killed after jumping out of closet in prank gone horribly wrong: father — New York Daily News Orlando boy shoots, kills younger brother, 12, after mistaking him for a home invaderOrlando boy shoots, kills younger brother, 12, after mistaking him for a home invader — New York Daily News teen had been drinking, was mistakenly shot he when entered wrong househttp://www.washingtonpost.com/...cfd-36d6c9b5d7ad_story.html Yakima man shoots pregnant wife, mistaking her for an intruderYakima man shoots pregnant wife, mistaking her for an intruder - oregonlive.com Man shoots wife; claims he thought she was intruder LPD: Man shoots wife; claims he thought she was intruder Teen shot after relative mistakes him for an intruder404
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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I've been making a very straight forward point, again and again and you've been dancing around it right from the get go, when percy responded to your blatant misreading of my post.
But none of them address what I've said: If you've broken into someone's home, then you have committed a crime
I have shown that your average Joe/Joanne with a gun in their hand is not a reliable judge of whether a crime has actually been committed or not and they are not a reliable judge as to whether lethal force is required or not. The corpses back this up. I've attempted to make this point again and again and you've willfully misrepresented me and avoided responding to the point I was making. legal or illegal, intentional or unintentional, these people have died, and had there not been a gun available most if not all of them would not have been killed.with out a gun there would have been time to identify themselves and the error/mistake would have been apparent. But because guns were readily available, these people are now dead. You keep on dancing.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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What is your point?
Seriously?I've dumbed this down just about as far as it can go, If you're not getting my point by now you never will. Carry on.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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Dumb enough to keep you guessing..
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Six people have been shot dead and at least one other wounded in three locations near Philadelphia, officials in the US state of Pennsylvania say.
Pennsylvania shootings: Six dead, gunman on the run - BBC News
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Most Car drivers are perfectly law abiding, but there are still APPROPRIATE laws in place to control
-who can drive. -What vehicles can be driven on a public road -Where a vehicle can be driven -how road worthy a vehicle must be before it is driven It genuinely boggles my mind that, in the US at least, you must pass a driving test before getting behind a wheel. but you can pick up a gun having never held one before.Bonkers.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1312 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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So, NCIS checks were introduced over a decade ago, with 700,000 denials.
As mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998. i.e. 700,000 Less people have guns than would otherwise have had without NCIS checks. As a result of this, firearm related homicides are down.
Conclusion: less guns in circulation than there would otherwise have been results in less homicides. congratuations! you have provided a good case for further gun control as a way of reducing homicides. Edited by Heathen, : No reason given. Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
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