Summations Only

I think guns were widely available before abortions were widely available. I don't think there's much connection between attitudes on guns and abortions (abortions are much more easily available in Europe where murder is far less common), but if there really is any cause/effect relationship then it must be in the other direction. The data you provided don't support this or any other conclusion, and statistics-by-Googling isn't valid anyway. You also don't say why you searched for stories where an intruder killed homeowners with their own gun, but it does call attention to the fact that to an armed intruder, going for one's gun will probably be interpreted as a threat.The story of Dan McKown that was on NPR this morning is illustrative of the dangers of gun ownership. McKown was carrying at the Tacoma Mall in Washington state when the 2005 shooting incident erupted. He left his hiding place, drew his weapon, and told the assailant to put his gun away. The assailant responded by shooting him five times. McKown survived but is confined to a wheelchair.The skills necessary for the proper use of a firearm for defensive purposes are highly perishable. Without regular training and practice they dissipate quickly. Challenging a criminal because you have a gun places one in a great deal of danger.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Improve clarity and grammar of first paragraph.

Did you mean to say this?Abortions have been around since man first discovered plants that worked as an abortifacient.

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Induced abortion has long history, and can be traced back to civilizations as varied as China under Shennong (c. 2700 BCE), Ancient Egypt with its Ebers Papyrus (c. 1550 BCE), and the Roman Empire in the time of Juvenal (c. 200 CE).[93] There is evidence to suggest that pregnancies were terminated through a number of methods, including the administration of abortifacient herbs, the use of sharpened implements, the application of abdominal pressure, and other techniques.

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Abortion - WikipediaEdited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Yes, but perhaps economy of expression introduced too much ambiguity. It was meant to be interpreted as, "I think guns were widely available before abortions were widely available," in other words, before Roe v. Wade.--Percy

ahh yes. I get it.Sorry for the interruption. Carry on.

Hi Percy, Abortions were first made legal in 1900.And yes guns have always been available in the US.But the children of today has been desensitized to death and what is reality. I am trying to understand your claim.

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In other words, having a gun in the house makes you less safe, not more safe. The fewer guns in American homes the fewer gun deaths there will be, and that's a good thing..

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As far as the homeowners gun in the home being a danger for the homeowner to be killed by his/her own gun is a myth.That has been proven by the search I did. If you disagree with my findings please present your information refuting that information. McKown is an idiot and is in a wheelchair because he wanted to give a killer a chance to live.A man that is killing people is to be stopped and the words put your gun away means nothing to such a person who is killing people and naturally he fired at McKown.That would be like being in a war zone and telling the enemy to put down his gun or you was going to shoot him.Had McKown reacted as I have been taught the assailant would have been dead and McKown would not have got shot.I have been berated because I say if a man breaks down my steel door and enters my house I will shoot him the moment he enters my house I will not look to see if he has a weapon or not because if I do I will wind up like McKown did or worse dead. The only thing that is perishable is your accuracy with the weapon you are carrying or have in your posession.The problem is unless you have military training or have went to a self defence school you have no business packing heat.As far as challenging a criminal who has a gun, if you issue a warning you will be shot even if you have your gun pointed at him/her when you issue the warning in most cases.So if someone has a gun and is shooting people you just pull your gun and shoot him as your life and the life of others is in imminent danger.Now I have to find out how many homeowners are killed by their signifant other in the house because a gun is in the house.Then I have to find out how many homeowners are killed by their children because a gun is in the house.Then I have to find out how many homeowners are killed by someone else living in the house because a gun is in the house.I will get back to you as I progress.BTW does your claim, "The fewer guns in American homes the fewer gun deaths there will be" include suicides?God Bless,

ICANT - Who enjoys the greater freedom in your view. Man A or man B?Man A lives in a situation where he genuinely needs to bolt his doors, set his alarms and persistently arm himself because there is a strong likelihood that if he doesn't he or his family will come to significant physical harm.Man B lives in a situation where he can be relatively unconcerned about personal security because he is unlikely to be a victim of violent crime.Who enjoys the greater freedom? So basically you concede that the domestic security measures you have described yourself as having are completely disproportionate and over-the-top as compared to the actual threat you are realistically exposed to.To my mind you are sacrificing the real freedom that the relative safety of a civilisaed existence in a 1st world western democracy enables us to have for the false liberty that you think your guns bring you. These are not the behaviours of a normal person who lives in a reasonably safe environment. These are the behaviours of an obsessive fanatic. It isn't sane to choose to exist as if you lived in of Mogadishu or Kabul if you actually don't need to live that way. You, like Faith, are doing the debate board equivalent of walking up and down with a sandwich board strapped to yourself with the words "THE END IS NIGH scrawled onto it. You are wasting your time preparing for, and living in fear of, some sort of end-of-days scenario. This is no way to live.There is a better way......

Hi Panda, I am sorry you have to be fed with a spoon.I did maintain a constant position. I don't teach children it is alright to commit murder but as a country we have made it legal to commit murder. Which is teaching our children it is alright to commit murder. If you are going to make such outlandish obervations you should at least not quote mine. But if you didn't you couldn't support your accusations.Here is the part you left out.

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If they can do it it is OK for me to kill a few.

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Yea I know that is warped thinking, but warped people think in warped ways and do warped things.

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When you add the rest of the quote you see that the children are doing the thinking and I am saying that is warped thinking.But you are part of the problem by promoting that kind of warped thinking. If life was precious in America there would be no abortions.
There would be no alcohol.
There would be no ilegal drugsThe drugs and alcohol cause many children to go to bed each night hungry.So tell me how precious life is in America?But yes my life and the life of my wife is precious to me.But those who want to take away my right to be able to defend my wife and myself does not think my life or my wifes life is precious. They want to allow the criminal the opportunity to choose whether my life or my wifes life is important.I say no thank you, the Constitution says you or the government has no right to infringe my possesing and bearing Arms.Now why don't you get down to doing some studying and present information as to why I am more at danger by having a gun in my home which I am very proficient in using as well as my wife to protect our lives.God Bless,

Hi Straggler, All preparations have been made for years, So how am I wasting my time preparing?I do not live in fear of someone busting into my house and killing me or my wife. They would not stand a chance.I have no promise of tomorrow so I live for today.I go where I want to go and do what I want to do and while I am doing so I do not have to worry about some criminal with bad intentions doing me or my wife harm.I am satisfied with my situation and if you were in my position you would probably be miserable.So I am going to suggest to you as I did to Panda. Why don't you do some studying and present the information I need to show me that my life is more at danger because I have guns in my house than I would be if I had no guns in my house?God Bless,

I am nowhere near to being in your situation - but thanks for the concern. It is not teaching.
Clearly you think abortion is murder.
Are you therefore uneducated?
Or perhaps you are just immune to learning?And in fact, if it is legal then, by definition, it is not murder. Correct.
Without quotes from you, I could not support my claims about you.
But luckily there are many posts from you to quote from. See...not just children with warped thinking.
That reminds me of something someone once said:
"Yea I know that is warped thinking, but warped people think in warped ways and do warped things."
Which is why we don't want you to have a gun. Thanks for elaborating.
I see that you tried to move the contradictory sentences further apart.
Has that technique worked in the past?Anyway, you are still contradicting yourself.

Hi ICANT,Theodoric took the same interpretation you did, sorry about the amibiguity. The widespread availability of guns preceded the widespread availability of abortions, i.e., preceded Roe v. Wade. I doubt there's any cause/effect relationship between attitudes on guns and abortions, but if there is one then it flows in the direction opposite to your surmise. I think you've garbled the claim a bit, but even in garbled form it is not a myth. The actual claim is that a gun is far more likely to be used against oneself or someone one knows or loves than a criminal. That's how some of the studies were conducted, by household and whether there is a gun in the household or not. What part of "surveys-by-Googling are invalid" and "the data you provided don't support this or any other conclusion" didn't you understand? You can't conduct valid surveys by counting news stories in Google, and your data, independent of whether it was valid, was incomplete. If you truly can't see these problems then I don't know what to say. We all know, for example, that 2+2+2+2=8, but 2+?+?+? is a woefully incomplete expression. More accurately, McKown was a gun owner who lacked the necessary training and practice to successfully use a gun for self defense. Which probably describes most gun owners. Of course, unbeknownst to you the man next door has collapsed from a heart attack and has managed to reach EMT's who have instructions to break down his door, except the dispatcher gave them the wrong address. And so as the EMT's rush up to your door and break it down, you shoot them. Congratulations. Well, yes, that's pretty close to what we've been saying. We'd go even further and say that the practice and training have to be on an ongoing basis because these are highly perishable skills. Probably the training you've received in the military is now so stale that your high opinion of your ability to handle these situations is completely unjustified. It's true whether you include suicides or not, but of course the number of gun deaths at the hands of non-criminals goes up enormously if you include suicides. Just going from rough memory, there are around 14,000 firearm suicides per year, and only around 12,000 firemarm homicides.--Percy

ICANT - Who enjoys the greater freedom in your view. Man A or man B?Man A lives in a situation where he genuinely needs to bolt his doors, set his alarms and persistently arm himself because there is a strong likelihood that if he doesn't he or his family will come to significant physical harm.Man B lives in a situation where he can be relatively unconcerned about personal security because he is unlikely to be a victim of violent crime.Who enjoys the greater freedom? Why are you unable to answer this? Except that this is totally contradicted by the claims made by you (and relentlessly by Faith) that you need your guns, your relentless vigilance, your over-the-top domestic security and so on and so forth in order to be ready for the impending doom soon to be upon us.You can't claim to "live for today" whilst also claiming to be relentlessly preparing yourself for some sort of inevitable doom tomorrow can you? Have you actually read the domestic situation you described in Message 1492? I suggest you re-read it. Aside from sounding like a living nightmare it also quite evidently requires a great deal of commitment.I subsequently challenged you to put away your guns, turn off your monitors and to try (for one month only) to experience an existence where defense and security are not the overriding concern, an existence where these things are a peripheral to one's existence rather than some sort of raison d'etre.You declined. Nor do I. If I lived like you do I would consider myself to be needlessly self-imprisoned. Tyrranised and oppressed by my own fear. Then why do you always go out armed? Evidence has been cited in this thread that shows a clear link between gun prevalence and homicide rates internationally as well as at the region, state, city and home level.In your specific case (if your weapons fanaticism and associated expertness is to be believed) I would suggest that it is more the tragic loss of freedom you have imposed on yourself as a result of your fanatical security obsession that is the greater issue.

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Rodrigo Diaz, 22, was driving around with his girlfriend and two friends when he pulled into a driveway, thinking they had arrived at another friend’s house, his brother says. But instead he pulled into the driveway of Phillip Sailors, 69, who thought his home was being robbed, his lawyer says. Sailors then shot Diaz, according to the police report, citing what Sailors told officers at the scene. Diaz later died while in the intensive care unit.

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Basically, what happened is they were looking for one of my brother’s girlfriend’s friends, says his brother David E. Diaz-Valencia, 23. The guy came outside and my brother’s girlfriend said he was screaming, ‘Get off my property!’ and he shot into the air. My brother was backing out fast because he was scared and he rolled down the window to say he was sorry and he was not doing anything wrong. Then the guy shot him in his head.

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SourceDead because of bad GPS and some old fucker that believes the propaganda.

Hi Percy, You forgot I have video of who is approaching my door and know who is there. So no I will not shoot the EMT. In fact they would probably bust out my back wall in the living room and I would have opened the door. Do you ever read anyting? I have stated we go to the range regularly and while there we chew the fat with our friends to keep our minds sharp about things that are going on and we need to remember to stay safe. But the rate of suicides does not go down with less guns in the homes. They just find another way.I have had suicide prevention training and repeat it every year to try to help people who have those tendecies. If someone is trully intent on commiting suicide there is no way to stop them. I lost a close friend to suicide. He failed the first time and we worked everyday doing construction work as well as working with his mind on his problem. He was an alocholic and was convinced that his daughter and wife would be better off if he was dead. Just a little shy of three years after his first attempt he succeeded.In 2010 there was 11,078 gun homicides in the US.
In 2010 there was 19,392 gun suicides.
In 2010 there was 606 unintentional gun deaths.
In 2010 there was 278 justified homicides.
In 2010 there was 780 deaths in robberys
14/3% in home invasion making a total of 112 victims.
In 2010 there was 80 deaths in burglary, I will assume all in homes.We have homeowners 278
We have crooks 192Homeowner having guns come out on top.Had not the homeowners had weapons or skills the totals could have read:Homeowners 0
crooks 470I am still trying to find numbers for family members killed by guns being in the home.If you know where any is at please let me in on them.

Hi Straggler, That is great.But what if someone did kick your front door in at 2:30 in the morning, what would you do?Lets take it 1 step further. The intruder is tryng to join a gang and his initation is for him to break into a house kill all the occupants and rob the house while gang members are watching the proceedings.Now what you do? The answer to that is you would probably die as well as everyone else in the house. For the same reason my car is insured everytime I take it out of the driveway.I want both just in case I need them. All the time hoping I never need either. That is very possible but I would never go out of my house without my belt on to hold my pants up either. And I don't have to think about puting my belt on or my shoulder holster.I do not have to think about observing what is going on around me it has been practiced so long it is done by instinct. Lately I have been getting a bit lazy but these discussions have refreshed me quite a bit so I guess I owe everyone a big thanks.God Bless,

Cuz that happens every day.I am sure in your fantasy they are brown or black, right.