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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4261 of 5179 (770344)
10-03-2015 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4259 by Tangle
10-03-2015 6:21 PM


Re: Prayer works if you do it right
None of it pertinant. Give us real world evidence that prayers always work, as was your claim.
Why are you distorting what I said? I said conditions have to be met and that the prayers you can always expect to be answered are those in God's will. I also said that although few here would want to see these particular prayers answered, the most dramatic answers to prayer I can think of are those for Christian revival such as those I linked to. Christian revival on a great scale WOULD affect the gun violence in the nation and a great many other things besides.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4259 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2015 6:21 PM Tangle has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4265 of 5179 (770350)
10-04-2015 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 4263 by Tangle
10-04-2015 1:44 AM


Re: Prayer works if you do it right
Your distortion was to say I said prayer always works. I did not. I said, as you now quote, praying IN GOD'S WILL always works.
If enough of us consistently prayed against the gun violence that would cut down on a lot of it, but the gun violence is likely to be part of God's judgment on the nation, part of the deterioration of the culture I mentioned, and turning back God's judgments means coming back into His will, a general culture-wide turning back to obedience to His law. That's what revivals bring about.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4266 of 5179 (770351)
10-04-2015 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4262 by Dr Adequate
10-03-2015 11:49 PM


Re: Prayer works if you do it right
You ARE my enemies. I couldn't pray for my enemies if you weren't my enemies could I?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(4)
Message 4268 of 5179 (770356)
10-04-2015 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4267 by AZPaul3
10-04-2015 7:58 AM


Re: Prayer works if you do it right
You do make it hard to love you, but I'm not giving up.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4272 of 5179 (770363)
10-04-2015 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 4271 by Larni
10-04-2015 9:25 AM


Re: Oregon college shooter targeted Christians
Let's destroy the Second Amendment because another person went berserk.
The sad fact is that Americans do not seem to be able to be trusted not to go on killing sprees.
Why would you want guns in the hands of a nation that go on regular killing sprees?
Well, let's get this into perspective if we can. These mass killings are recent, began in the 90s with Columbine. They may be related to the psychotropic drugs I posted on, which are also a fairly recent phenomenon, at the level they are prescribed now anyway. But at least it's all related to the great cultural sea change, brought about, dare I say it, by the forces of liberalism over the last half century. The death of Christian morality is a biggie for instance.
And yes, I also suspect there could be .a more direct conspiracy of some sort that affects unstable people with guns. They usually kill themselves so finding out about any such influences is hampered even if someone was alerted to look for them. Bringing down the Second Amendment has got to be high on the list of the projects of any enemy who wants to completely undermine America's ability to defend ourselves. I could name plenty of other such projects that are working only too well in that respect, the Second Amendment may be the last bulwark we've got.
And excuse me, but the UK and Europe are not exactly models of security against invaders either. You may seem to be doing just fine having crippled your citizenry by taking away their guns, but wait until America's Second Amendment falls and then see how safe you are.
ABE: This thread is a perfect example of how well propaganda works. Get a negative line going against America, make it sound sophisticated and reasonable, make disarmed nations look perfectly safe, which they only are as long as we're armed, be sure to vilify Protestants too because the Reformation was the foundation of the prosperity and strength of America, and went a long way in that direction for you guys too, but you actually think you're safer without all that, having no idea where your protection comes from ultimately. You've got Muslims increasing their population in your midst, SO seemingly benign, while you ignore the teachings of Islam that growing their population within enemy nations is one of their strategies for taking the world for Allah. Well, it is probably too late but I guess I can keep on saying it anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4277 of 5179 (770368)
10-04-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4275 by Percy
10-04-2015 10:34 AM


Increase in killings, psychotropic drugs, moral degeneration, conspiracies
  • One mass killing in 1966 and one in 1913 is hardly a fair comparison to the spate of such killings since the 90s. ABE: Just saw your link. Are you going to claim there hasn't been a HUGE increase since the 90s or at least 80s? Your own list makes the point. /ABE There's been a dramatic increase which has become a major excuse for blaming the Second Amendment.
  • You say there has been no death of Christian morality. I'm talking of course about BIBLICAL Christian morality. The point is what the society as whole supports and especially legalizes, not focusing on individuals.
    Here's a list off the top of my head:
    • Abortion made legal
    • Tolerance of sex outside marriage, popularized among celebrities (even Prince William and Kate in England lived together before marrying); rise in single parent families as a result {"Thou shalt not commit adultery" which includes all sex outside marriage)
    • Eased divorce laws ("God hates divorce")
    • Nineteen states have eliminated the death penalty (scripture says whoever takes a human life must forfeit his own because human beings are made in the image of God)
    • God's marriage ordinance extended to homosexuals, though homosexuality is defined as a sin in scripture.
  • I did support the role of psychotropic drugs in Message 4213 and Message 4217:
    Here's one:
    LIST OF MASS KILLINGS.
    This list of killings goes back to the 80s; it also includes killings by other means than guns; it also includes a few in other countries:
    Fact: At least 35 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 169 wounded and 79 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made publicneither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs). The most important fact about this list, is that these are only cases where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public. (See full list below)
    The below list includes individuals documented to have been under the influence of psychiatric drugs and not only includes mass shootings, but the use of knives, swords and bombs. 22 international drug regulatory agency warnings cite side effects including mania, violence, psychosis and even homicidal ideation.
    1.Tallahassee, Florida — November 20, 2014: 31-year-old Myron May, a Florida State University alum, opened fire in the school’s library, wounding three before he was shot and killed by police. ABC Action News found a half-filled prescription for the antianxiety drug Hydroxyzine in his apartment after the shooting. In addition, according to May’s friends, he had seen a psychologist and had been prescribed the antidepressant Wellbutrin and the ADHD drug Vyvanse. He also checked himself in to a mental health center called Mesilla Valley Hospital around September of 2014. Shortly after this, his friends discovered the antipsychotic Seroquel among his prescriptions.
    2.Seattle, Washington — June 5, 2014: 26-year-old Aaron Ybarra opened fire with a shotgun at Seattle Pacific University, killing one student and wounding two others. Ybarra planned to kill as many people as possible and then kill himself. In 2012, Ybarra reported that he had been prescribed the antidepressant Prozac and antipsychotic Risperdal. A report from his counselor in December of 2013 said that he was taking Prozac at the time and planned to continue to meet with his psychiatrist and therapist as needed.
    3.Milford, Connecticut — April 25, 2014: 16-year-old Chris Plaskon stabbed Maren Sanchez, also 16, to death in a stairwell at Jonathan Law High School after she turned down his prom invitation. According to classmates and a former close friend, Chris was taking drugs for ADHD.
    4.Sparks, Nevada — October 21, 2013: 12-year-old Jose Reyes opened fire at Sparks Middle School, killing a teacher and wounding two classmates before committing suicide. The investigation revealed that he had been seeing a psychiatrist and had a generic version of Prozac (fluoxetine) in his system at the time of death.
    5.St. Louis, Missouri — January 15, 2013: 34-year-old Sean Johnson walked onto the Stevens Institute of Business & Arts campus and shot the school’s financial aid director once in the chest, then shot himself in the torso. Johnson had been taking prescribed drugs for an undisclosed mental illness.
    6.Snohomish County, Washington — October 24, 2011: A 15-year-old girl went to Snohomish High School where police alleged that she stabbed a girl as many as 25 times just before the start of school, and then stabbed another girl who tried to help her injured friend. Prior to the attack the girl had been taking medication and seeing a psychiatrist. Court documents said the girl was being treated for depression.
    7.Planoise, France — December 13, 2010: A 17-year-old youth held twenty pre-school children and their teacher hostage for hours at Charles Fourier preschool. The teen was reported to be on medication for depression. He took a classroom hostage with two swords. Eventually, all the children and the teacher were released safely.
    8.Myrtle Beach, South Carolina — September 21, 2011: 14-year-old Christian Helms had two pipe bombs in his backpack, when he shot and wounded Socastee High School’s resource (police) officer. However the officer was able to stop the student before he could do anything further. Helms had been taking drugs for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and depression.
    9.Huntsville, Alabama — February 5, 2010: 15-year-old Hammad Memon shot and killed another Discover Middle School student Todd Brown. Memon had a history for being treated for ADHD and depression. He was taking the antidepressant Zoloft and other drugs for the conditions. He had been seeing a psychiatrist and psychologist.
    10.Kauhajoki, Finland — September 23, 2008: 22-year-old culinary student Matti Saari shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine. He was also seeing a psychologist.
    11.Fresno, California — April 24, 2008: 17-year-old Jesus Jesse Carrizales attacked the Fresno high school’s officer, hitting him in the head with a baseball bat. After knocking the officer down, the officer shot Carrizales in self-defense, killing him. Carrizales had been prescribed Lexapro and Geodon, and his autopsy showed that he had a high dose of the antidepressant Lexapro in his blood that could have caused him to be paranoid, according to the coroner.
    12.Dekalb, Illinois — February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system. He had been seeing a psychiatrist.
    13.Jokela, Finland — November 7, 2007: 18-year-old Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School in southern Finland, then committed suicide.
    14.Texas — November 7, 2007: 17-year-old Felicia McMillan returned to her former Robert E. Lee High School campus and stabbed a male student and wounded the principle with a knife. McMillan had been on drugs for depression, and had just taken them the night before the incident.
    15.Cleveland, Ohio — October 10, 2007: 14-year-old Asa Coon stormed through his school with a gun in each hand, shooting and wounding four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon had been placed on the antidepressant Trazodone.
    16.Sudbury, Massachusetts — January 19, 2007: 16-year-old John Odgren stabbed another student with a large kitchen knife in a boy’s bathroom at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School. In court his father testified that Odgren was prescribed the drug Ritalin.
    17.North Vernon, Indiana — December 4, 2006: 16-year-old Travis Roberson stabbed another Jennings County High School student in the neck, nearly severing an artery. Roberson was in withdrawal from Wellbutrin, which he had stopped taking days before the attack.
    18.Hillsborough, North Carolina — August 30, 2006: 19-year-old Alvaro Rafael Castillo shot and killed his father, then drove to Orange High School where he opened fire. Two students were injured in the shooting, which ended when school personnel tackled him. His mother said he was on drugs for depression.
    19.Chapel Hill, North Carolina — April 2006: 17-year-old William Barrett Foster took a shotgun to school and took a teacher and a fellow student hostage at East Chapel Hill High School. After being talked out of shooting the hostages, Foster fired two shots through a classroom window before fleeing the school on foot. Foster’s father testified that his son had stopped taking his antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs without telling him.
    20.Red Lake, Minnesota — March 21, 2005: 16-year-old Jeff Weise, on Prozac, shot and killed his grandparents, then went to his school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation where he shot dead 5 students, a security guard, and a teacher, and wounded 7 before killing himself.
    21.Greenbush, New York — February 2004: 16-year-old Jon Romano strolled into his high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Special education teacher Michael Bennett was hit in the leg. Romano had been taking medication for depression. He had previously seen a psychiatrist.
    22.Red Lion, Pennsylvania — February 2, 2001: 56-year-old William Michael Stankewicz entered North Hopewell-Winterstown Elementary School with a machete, leaving three adults and 11 children injured. Stankewicz was taking four different drugs for depression and anxiety weeks before the attacks.
    23.Ikeda, Japan — June 8, 2001: 37-year-old Mamoru Takuma, wielding a 6-inch knife, slipped into an elementary school and stabbed eight first- and second-graders to death while wounding at least 15 other pupils and teachers. He then turned the knife on himself but suffered only superficial wounds. He later told interrogators that before the attack he had taken 10 times his normal dose of antidepressants.
    24.Wahluke, Washington — April 10, 2001: Sixteen-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. He had been taking the antidepressant Effexor.
    25.El Cajon, California — March 22, 2001: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor, opened fire on his classmates, wounding three students and two teachers at Granite Hills High School. He had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.
    26.Williamsport, Pennsylvania — March 7, 2001: 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush was taking the antidepressant Prozac when she shot at fellow students, wounding one.
    27.Oxnard, California — January 2001: 17-year-old Richard Lopez went to Hueneme High School with a gun and shot twice at a car in the school’s parking lot before taking a female student hostage. Lopez was eventually killed by a SWAT officer. He had been prescribed Prozac, Paxil and drugs that helped him go to sleep.
    28.Conyers, Georgia — May 20, 1999: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with the stimulant Ritalin when he opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.
    29.Columbine, Colorado — April 20, 1999: 18-year-old Eric Harris and his accomplice, Dylan Klebold, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 26 others before killing themselves. Harris was on the antidepressant Luvox. Klebold’s medical records remain sealed. Both shooters had been in anger-management classes and had undergone counseling. Harris had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.
    30.Notus, Idaho — April 16, 1999: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school, narrowly missing students. He was taking a prescribed antidepressant and Ritalin.
    31.Springfield, Oregon — May 21, 1998: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 25. Kinkel had been taking the antidepressant Prozac. Kinkel had been attending anger control classes and was under the care of a psychologist.
    32.Blackville, South Carolina — October 12, 1995: 15-year-old Toby R. Sincino slipped into the Blackville-Hilda High School’s rear entrance, where he shot two Blackville-Hilda High School teachers, killing one. Then Toby killed himself moments later. His aunt, Carolyn McCreary, said he had been undergoing counseling with the Department of Mental Health and was taking Zoloft for emotional problems.
    33.Chelsea, Michigan — December 17, 1993: 39-year-old chemistry teacher Stephen Leith, facing a disciplinary matter at Chelsea High School, shot Superintendent Joseph Piasecki to death, shot Principal Ron Mead in the leg, and slightly wounded journalism teacher Phil Jones. Leith was taking Prozac and had been seeing a psychiatrist.
    34.Houston, Texas — September 18, 1992: 44-year-old Calvin Charles Bell, reportedly upset about his second-grader’s progress report, appeared in the principal’s office of Piney Point Elementary School. Bell fired a gun in the school, and eventually wounded two officers before surrendering. Relatives told police on Friday that Bell was an unemployed Vietnam veteran and had been taking anti-depressants.
    35.Winnetka, Illinois — 20 May 1988: 30-year-old Laurie Wasserman Dann walked into a second grade classroom at Hubbard Woods School in Winnetka, Illinois carrying three pistols and began shooting children, killing an eight-year-old boy, and wounding five others before fleeing. She entered a nearby house where she shot and wounded a 20-year-old man before killing herself. Dann had been seeing a psychiatrist and subsequent blood tests revealed that at the time of the killings, she was taking the antidepressant Anafranil.
    Here's a list of warnings on these drugs: Psychiatric Drugs and Violence -- the Facts
    Such as this one in the US:
    The Drug Regulatory Agency Warnings on Psychiatric drugs and violence:
    United States, November 2005: The FDA’s Safety Information and Adverse Event Reporting Program reported homicidal ideation as an adverse event of Effexor ER (extended release).
    Read the list. Homicidal ideation, suicidal ideation, bizarre behavior, violence, delusions of grandeur.... attributed to these drugs.
  • As for the conspiracies I'm starting a new blog to collect information on all that, but it will be a while before it's worth checking out.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4278 by Theodoric, posted 10-04-2015 1:56 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4283 of 5179 (770378)
10-04-2015 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 4278 by Theodoric
10-04-2015 1:56 PM


Re: Increase in killings, psychotropic drugs, moral degeneration, conspiracies
So you want to ban everyone with mental health issues from owning guns? The ammosexuals won't allow basic background checks, how are they going to go along with this. This is all just a red herring.
It's the DRUGS that are the cause of the violence, not the mental illness. And I don't know how to use this information since I got talked out of one idea I had. But I would think it would be of interest to know, whether we have a solution or not, if these drugs are associated with all these killings.
But I also keep mentioning the demoralization of the country as a cause and I think it is. Abortion devalues life and some people take that personally: my mom could have aborted me, she'd never have known after all. Divorce usually takes fathers away from the family which can create a lot of insecurity for children, especially boys; also forces mothers to work so two parents are often away. Same effect with the single-parent situation often caused by irresponsible sex. No, not ALL such situations have negative consequences, but surely enough do to contribute to the mental health issues in the nation. The general devaluation of marriage is a recipe for chaos and insecurity in itself. And excuse me but homosexual marriage is basically a mockery which any prepubescent child can figure out even if they conform to the politically correct talking points, which has to create a schizoid mentality to some extent.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4287 of 5179 (770386)
10-04-2015 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4281 by ringo
10-04-2015 2:15 PM


Re: Prayer works if you do it right
It isn't always easy to love you either but we (some of us) do - and we don't even have a god telling us to.
Should be even easier once I get used to this love thing. You should be glad Jesus is telling me to love you all because it isn't in me to love people who have such radically (obnoxiously) different opinions from mine, and one thing I've discovered here is what a temper I have. Tired of having it get the better of me, but I think Jesus finally got hold of me this time. I'll never love your opinions but if Jesus loves you through me it should make us all a bit happier.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4288 of 5179 (770387)
10-04-2015 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 4286 by Tangle
10-04-2015 6:08 PM


Re: Increase in killings, psychotropic drugs, moral degeneration, conspiracies
Probably in a different way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4286 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2015 6:08 PM Tangle has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4296 of 5179 (770403)
10-05-2015 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4291 by Percy
10-04-2015 7:56 PM


Re: Increase in killings, psychotropic drugs, moral degeneration, conspiracies
One mass killing in 1966 and one in 1913 is hardly a fair comparison to the spate of such killings since the 90s.
That's not what you said. You said, "These mass killings are recent, began in the 90s with Columbine," but it's easy to find mass killings before the 90's. I just happened to mention only two.
I really can't fathom why you wouldn't know I wasn't saying there had never been any mass killings before the 90s. What we've been seeing since then is an increase to the point that it's every couple of years or so and we're almost getting to take it for granted. It's the numbers and the frequency that we're all aware of that anybody is talking about, not just the occasional berserkery years apart.
Mass killings have increased with the increasing prevalence of guns, and the increased ease of their acquisition.
Makes a nice simple refrain I guess.
You say there has been no death of Christian morality. I'm talking of course about BIBLICAL Christian morality.
What you say is never what you're talking about, is it.
It always is only I realize belatedly that you don't have the same definitions I have. And I would think you would know this too.
Anyway, if there's been any death of BIBLICAL Christian morality then it's been much greater in Europe, so why don't they have more mass killings?
I wouldn't expect the exact same consequences from culture to culture myself.
I gave two sources, not just Ammoland. Do you actually think they made up the drugs each of the killers was on, and made up the warning labels on the various drugs too? Ad hominems at EvC reach new heights of absurdity.
We aren't going to eliminate the guns so it would be a good idea to think in terms of other ways to prevent the problem.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4303 of 5179 (770416)
10-05-2015 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4297 by MrHambre
10-05-2015 6:43 AM


Re: The Culture of Gun Fetishism
Utter nonsense. I've known a lot of gun owners and there isn't a shred of resemblance between them and that Hollywood-invented portrait of them. I would think if anyone really wanted to influence them to help deal with the problems of mass killings and other gun violence, including accidents due to irresponsibility, it would help to treat them as intelligent responsible human beings which the vast majority are. As long as this liberal smear campaign continues don't expect much help.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4313 of 5179 (770432)
10-05-2015 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 4304 by Omnivorous
10-05-2015 11:42 AM


Re: The Culture of Gun Fetishism
Most of the people I know who own guns come from families where gun ownership goes back generations. A couple are avid hunters and teach their children to hunt, one is a WWII vet (pushing 90) who owns a couple of guns from that time and keeps them in shape and well hidden, and in my family guns go back to the mid-19th century in wild country where they homesteaded and guns were essential. It was part of life and got passed on as part of life to the children who passed it on to their children. Mostly all they do with them is go out into the desert for target practice, but they still consider the guns a necessity even if times have changed.
It is not part of any "gun culture," it's not some kind of fetish, it's just considered common sense to own a gun and the Second Amendment agrees with them. There has never been a gun accident among any of the people I know who own guns, they are extremely safety-conscious about their guns. And if it weren't for the big media flap made over incidents that they consider to be alien remote and unrelated to any of their own experience, they wouldn't give it a second thought.
To them it IS some kind of attack on their rights and freedoms, and might as well be a conspiracy against them. The fact that there is such a push to deprive them of this ordinary right does suggest that some enemy is trying to disarm them and the country.
If it were just about regulations to keep the guns out of the hands of potential murderers and irresponsible people the focus would be there instead of on getting rid of guns period, but notice the rhetoric: it's always about guns per se, it's always about some supposed crazy gun culture, it is always full of negative characterizations of America as a whole, it confuses statistics from high crime areas with the majority of gun owners elsewhere, it's a totally irresponsible approach to the problems they say they want to deal with. It only puts the good guys on the defensive. And rightly so.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4321 of 5179 (770447)
10-05-2015 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4318 by Omnivorous
10-05-2015 6:22 PM


Re: The Culture of Gun Fetishism
There is no push to eliminate responsible gun ownership: could you point to some organized effort to do so?
I'm responding to the GET RID OF GUNS, PERIOD rhetoric on this very thread, along with the AMERICA IS FULL OF CRAZY PEOPLE rhetoric on this very thread, along with the GUN PEOPLE ARE PART OF A GUN CULTURE OF FANATICS AND FETISHISTS on this very thread. That's what prompted my post.
But I'm also not going to say the people I described are NOT "gun nuts" as Percy describes gun nuts, because if you push them you'll find out that they too consider their guns to be necessary to their own personal safety, which seems to be the definition of a gun nut.
But when this rhetoric I'm talking about gets flying it threatens the good gun owners too. The WWII vet is actually a liberal who would rather not give up his guns but would if the government required it. In other words although he may be a "collector" according to Percy's definition which is supposedly a safe category, he would expect to have to relinquish his guns. Where is he getting that idea if not from the liberal rhetoric, despite the assurances here that some categories are not going to be threatened? But also, he does consider his guns to be for personal security, so that makes him too a "gun nut" right? Even though as a liberal he'd feel obliged to give them up.
ALL the good people feel threatened by the liberal rhetoric. Why is that if it's not meant to threaten them? Why not reassure them instead and emphasize that all you want is cooperation toward eliminating the mass killings and the other problems with guns?
Why threaten the Second Amendment? Why talk about it as if it's got to go, it's an antiquated idea that no longer applies in a modern advanced society? Why keep saying guns are the problem, guns are the problem, if you really mean that guns aren't a problem in some circumstances but only in others?
It's true I'm not paying that much attention to incendiary rhetoric on the pro-gun side, but the prevailing liberal rhetoric IS a major impediment if what you really want is reasonable solutions to identifiable problems and not just the elimination of all guns.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4318 by Omnivorous, posted 10-05-2015 6:22 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4326 by Omnivorous, posted 10-05-2015 9:17 PM Faith has replied
 Message 4331 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-05-2015 10:32 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4332 of 5179 (770458)
10-05-2015 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4326 by Omnivorous
10-05-2015 9:17 PM


Re: The Culture of Gun Fetishism
Sorry about the capitals. They aren't necessarily heat though. I should have used italics but they require *code* and three pairs of code is sometimes too much. I guess I could go for asterisks. I'll try to keep that in mind.
Even though those capitalized opinions aren't yours, couldn't you please just acknowledge that they reflect the main tone of this thread and that it IS *liberal* and that my responding to it isn't just some off-the-wall reaction to some phantom liberal thing.
You are right that I don't follow the conservative media much.
And I can guarantee you that my WWII vet friend does not have a clue about what the conservative media are saying. His sources are all liberal. So if he thinks he might have to give up his guns he isn't getting the idea from Breitbart or Limbaugh.
Now I'm too tired to answer the rest of your post. Later.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4326 by Omnivorous, posted 10-05-2015 9:17 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4334 by saab93f, posted 10-06-2015 2:56 AM Faith has replied
 Message 4337 by Omnivorous, posted 10-06-2015 7:42 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4339 of 5179 (770468)
10-06-2015 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 4334 by saab93f
10-06-2015 2:56 AM


Re: The Culture of Gun Fetishism
Since I don't blame guns for the killings, I regard the accusation that gun owners don't care about children or people who get murdered as propaganda against the security of America.
I'm not for MORE guns, saab, though I AM for having fewer or no gun-free zones.
I would like to see reasonable ways of preventing guns from getting into the hands of mentally unstable people.
People in foreign countries don't understand America's history of guns or the second amendment. I refer you to my Message 57 for a refresher.
Finland is probably under no threat from enemies, just as the rest of Europe isn't right now (at least not from external armies I hasten to add). But disarm American citizens and then see what happens. I know people ridicule the idea of gun-totin' citizens facing down a massive army with sophisticated weaponry, but that isn't the view from the right: the view is that the massive army isn't going to show up as long as the citizens are armed.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4334 by saab93f, posted 10-06-2015 2:56 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4341 by vimesey, posted 10-06-2015 10:44 AM Faith has replied
 Message 4343 by saab93f, posted 10-06-2015 12:11 PM Faith has not replied

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